Discussion:
Is Apple acknowledging that many users want an active stylus on their phones?
(too old to reply)
sms
2018-08-17 00:58:45 UTC
Permalink
Is Apple acknowledging that many users want an active stylus on their
phones?

https://www.macrumors.com/2018/08/16/2018-iphone-x-apple-pencil-support/

Probably. Since Apple already added active stylus support to the iPad
Pro, and Samsung has it on the Galaxy Note series, it is only reasonable
that the iPhone gain this same functionality. Hopefully with a smaller
stylus than the one used with the iPad Pro! I really like my “Apple
Pencil” on the iPad Pro, though mouse support, like on the Microsoft
Surface Pro and on Android tablets, would be really nice when using the
iPad as a computer with the keyboard.

Now what really would be awesome is if Apple also copied Microsoft’s
“Windows Ink” and active stylus that is available on an increasing
number of laptops. There are already software applications that require
the use of Windows Ink. Had to buy my son one those laptops because one
of the applications he uses in college will only work with a Windows 10
machine that supports Windows Ink.
VanguardLH
2018-08-17 01:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
Is Apple acknowledging that many users want an active stylus on their
phones?
https://www.macrumors.com/2018/08/16/2018-iphone-x-apple-pencil-support/
Probably. Since Apple already added active stylus support to the iPad
Pro, and Samsung has it on the Galaxy Note series, it is only reasonable
that the iPhone gain this same functionality. Hopefully with a smaller
stylus than the one used with the iPad Pro! I really like my “Apple
Pencil” on the iPad Pro, though mouse support, like on the Microsoft
Surface Pro and on Android tablets, would be really nice when using the
iPad as a computer with the keyboard.
Now what really would be awesome is if Apple also copied Microsoft’s
“Windows Ink” and active stylus that is available on an increasing
number of laptops. There are already software applications that require
the use of Windows Ink. Had to buy my son one those laptops because one
of the applications he uses in college will only work with a Windows 10
machine that supports Windows Ink.
And what did your post have to do with *Android*, the topic of THIS
newsgroup?
Arthur Conan Doyle
2018-08-17 08:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
And what did your post have to do with *Android*, the topic of THIS
newsgroup?
It is a troll of the same ilk as Ragnusen Ultred (Arlen Holder's previous nym).
sms
2018-08-17 13:12:12 UTC
Permalink
On 8/16/2018 6:19 PM, VanguardLH wrote:

<snip>
Post by VanguardLH
And what did your post have to do with *Android*, the topic of THIS
newsgroup?
It is comparing the features of Android devices with those of iOS
devices. Since the two ecosystems tend to copy features from each other,
in both directions, for better (styluses, larger screens, IP67/68 etc.)
or worse (loss of headphone jacks, loss of MicroSD card slots, "the
notch") it is certainly relevant.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-17 15:24:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
It is comparing the features of Android devices with those of iOS
devices. Since the two ecosystems tend to copy features from each other,
in both directions, for better (styluses, larger screens, IP67/68 etc.)
or worse (loss of headphone jacks, loss of MicroSD card slots, "the
notch") it is certainly relevant.
I have two points of view, one for each of those two topics, where, as sms
knows, I have had (& still have) _both_ iOS and Android devices for years.

1. The stylus (is it really useful?)
2. Copying features (it's not what you think)

STYLUS:
I have an LG Stylo 3 Plus Android phone, which comes with a stylus, but
which I haven't found a use for yet that isn't anything I want to do.

If there is a good use, let me know - as I'm not good with one-finger
keyboards either - but the stylus doesn't seem to be any faster or more
accurate in writing-to-letter tests of mine.

I don't "draw" on my phone - so I'm not sure what good the stylus is for me
other than for "text" but I also suck at leaving myself memos so if there
was a great way to leave myself timed to-do notes, that would be great if
the stylus works for that in as few clicks as possible (preferably a singe
action for such things is desired).

COPYING:
While the highly marketed "stylish" Android phones *do* copy what Apple
leads with (e.g., no battery replacement, no headphone jack, no sdcard
slot, super high price, etc.), I think the "basic" Android phones do not
always copy what the highly marketed phones do.

For example, removable batteries is a bonus to the consumer, as is an sd
slot, as is a headphone jack - where the main reason marketing loves
removing those features, IMHO, is that they can LOCK the consumer into
their proprietary solutions.

Apple is the *best* in the world in *locking the consumer* into proprietary
features, where I think it's sad that the highly marketed Android phones
copy suite.

Still - the less marketed phones (e.g., the $130 8-core LG Stylo 3 Plus,
which costs five times less than the far-less-functional but let's call it
essentially hardware equivalent 3-core iPhone 7 Plus - has *all* those
hardware features - and more...
a. Removable battery
b. 2TB sd card slot
c. headphone jack

My main point is that not all the Android devices are copying the highly
marketed ways of Android.

A side note is that if the consumer refuses to purchase these expensive
limited restricted Android iPhone copies, the consumer will win in the end.

It's like refusing to purchase highly marketed drugs from a drug dealer.
abcdef
2018-08-17 17:15:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen Holder
removable batteries is a bonus to the consumer
I like it that when I drop my phone it no longer breaks into 3 pieces
(battery, cover, phone). I've yet to have to replace a battery because
of old age before I WANTED a new phone (usually around 2 years). I like
the smaller phone case possible by eliminating the removable battery.
The wife's iPhone 6+ recently suffered from a swollen battery. It was
not difficult to replace (about 30 minutes of my labor) and cost US$30
including tools. YMMV.
Post by Arlen Holder
as is an sd slot
With the large amount of internal storage available in my current
Android phone I have yet to need an SD card. YMMV.
Post by Arlen Holder
as is a headphone jack
Agreed. I would miss a headphone jack. However the wife has yet to
complain about her iPhone not having one. Guess it's a YMMV thing...
nospam
2018-08-17 17:30:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by Arlen Holder
as is a headphone jack
Agreed. I would miss a headphone jack. However the wife has yet to
complain about her iPhone not having one. Guess it's a YMMV thing...
it has a digital headphone jack and includes headphones in the box as
well as an adapter for legacy analog headphones. it also fully supports
all bluetooth headsets and headphones. it's a complete non-issue.

it's also nothing new. the first android phone, back in 2008, also had
a digital headphone jack, except that used a non-standard ext-usb jack.
<https://www.engadget.com/2008/09/23/confirmed-t-mobile-g1-has-no-3-5mm-
headphone-jack/>
abcdef
2018-08-17 18:01:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
I would miss a headphone jack. However the wife has yet to complain
about her iPhone not having one. Guess it's a YMMV thing...
it has a digital headphone jack and includes headphones in the box
One size headphone fits all? No thanks. YMMV.
Post by nospam
as well as an adapter for legacy analog headphones.
Having a headphone dongle dangling? No thanks. YMMV.
Post by nospam
it also fully supports all bluetooth headsets and headphones.
Bluetooth? More cost, battery charge hassle, and bulk. No thanks. YMMV.
Post by nospam
it's a complete non-issue.
It's an issue for me. And I suppose it is for all those others
complaining about phones with no earphone hole.
Post by nospam
it's also nothing new. the first android phone, back in 2008, also
had a digital headphone jack, except that used a non-standard ext-usb
jack.
That type of Android phone appears to have died out. Wonder why...
nospam
2018-08-17 18:42:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
I would miss a headphone jack. However the wife has yet to complain
about her iPhone not having one. Guess it's a YMMV thing...
it has a digital headphone jack and includes headphones in the box
One size headphone fits all? No thanks. YMMV.
most people use the headphones in the box (or they use the speakers
built into the phone). there are also numerous third party headphones.
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
as well as an adapter for legacy analog headphones.
Having a headphone dongle dangling? No thanks. YMMV.
nothing dangles, other than the wires that normally would.
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
it also fully supports all bluetooth headsets and headphones.
Bluetooth? More cost, battery charge hassle, and bulk. No thanks. YMMV.
no hassles and no bulk, nor any dangling wires to get caught on
anything.

some even fit entirely in the ear, which is as bulk-free as it gets:
<https://i2.wp.com/www.automatedhome.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/br
agi-headphone-in-ear.jpg>
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
it's a complete non-issue.
It's an issue for me. And I suppose it is for all those others
complaining about phones with no earphone hole.
people love to complain, yet sales keep going up as more manufacturers
move to digital headphone jacks.

analog headphone jacks are obsolete.
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
it's also nothing new. the first android phone, back in 2008, also
had a digital headphone jack, except that used a non-standard ext-usb
jack.
That type of Android phone appears to have died out. Wonder why...
it didn't.

there are currently a *lot* of android phones with usb-c headphone
jacks, including the google pixel, considered to be 'pure android', the
essential phone from andy rubin, who created android, as well as
several other major device makers, including motorola and htc as well
as several smaller and lesser known manufacturers.

<https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/04/google-dropped-the-pixels-headphone-j
ack-to-lay-the-groundwork-for-a-bezel-free-phone/>
³The primary reason [for dropping the jack] is establishing a
mechanical design path for the future,² Google product chief Mario
Queiroz told TechCrunch after the event. ³We want the display to go
closer and closer to the edge.

<https://www.businessinsider.com/htc-u11-life-headphone-jack-usb-c-noise-
canceling-headphones-2017-11>
HTC ditched the headphone jack on its new smartphone ‹ but replaced
it with something way better
...
At this stage in the game, that's hardly a surprise. Most smartphone
makers are ditching the traditional headphone jack to make phones
thinner and to embrace the wireless-headphones revolution. Even
Google, which poked fun at Apple last year for removing the headphone
jack, got rid of it on this year's Pixel 2.
...
But wait, it gets better: USB-C ports are able to power things that
are plugged into them, which means that a pair of pretty standard,
free earbuds are able to become noise canceling.

<https://www.androidcentral.com/moto-z-doesnt-have-headphone-jack>
The Z does have a USB Type-C port, which does an excellent job of
outputting digital audio. Our own Michael Fisher has confirmed that
the Moto Z comes with a USB-C headphone adapter, which should convert
the audio into analog so you can plug in the headphones you already
have to listen to music or watch a movie or even talk on (or to) your
phone.
abcdef
2018-08-17 20:26:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
Post by abcdef
I would miss a headphone jack. However the wife has yet to
complain about her iPhone not having one. Guess it's a YMMV
thing...
it has a digital headphone jack and includes headphones in the box
One size headphone fits all? No thanks. YMMV.
most people use the headphones in the box
MOST people? So you surveyed how many millions of Apple users then? My
GUESS is that MOST people are like my wife and don't use the included
headphones at all.
Post by nospam
(or they use the speakers built into the phone)
Course. Everyone uses the built in phone speakers for Facebook etc, even
me. But for listening to quality music (local or streaming) the speakers
suck.
Post by nospam
there are also numerous third party headphones.
Perhaps. But my local stores carry STANDARD headphones in droves whereas
the Apple aisle has only one or two.
Post by nospam
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
as well as an adapter for legacy analog headphones.
Having a headphone dongle dangling? No thanks. YMMV.
nothing dangles, other than the wires that normally would.
Yeah, the dongle really does dangle. AGAIN YMMV.
Post by nospam
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
it also fully supports all bluetooth headsets and headphones.
Bluetooth? More cost, battery charge hassle, and bulk. No thanks. YMMV.
no hassles and no bulk, nor any dangling wires to get caught on
anything.
Agreed the wires can be a pain. But the battery IMO is a bigger pain.
And the Bluetooth headphones I've tried can't produce the volume I like.
Simpler is often better.
Unfortunately the tiny Bluetooth models I've tried sacrifice battery
life and are volume starved.
Post by nospam
analog headphone jacks are obsolete.
Obsolete? Maybe someday. But as long as millions of phones currently
have them, not so much. We had this discussion over 2 years ago. So far
your prediction of the death of the audio hole has been greatly
exaggerated...
Post by nospam
there are currently a *lot* of android phones with usb-c headphone
jacks, including the google pixel, considered to be 'pure android',
PURE Android? Is that like PURE Linux?
Post by nospam
the essential phone from andy rubin, who created android, as well as
several other major device makers, including motorola...
Glad my Motorola phone is still holy (hole-ee, get it? Sorry.)
Post by nospam
At this stage in the game, that's hardly a surprise. Most smartphone
makers are ditching the traditional headphone jack to make phones
thinner and to embrace the wireless-headphones revolution. Even
Google, which poked fun at Apple last year for removing the
headphone jack, got rid of it on this year's Pixel 2.
Whatever sells the most cells (phones) will win.
Post by nospam
the Moto Z comes with a USB-C headphone adapter, which should
convert the audio into analog so you can plug in the headphones you
already have to listen to music or watch a movie or even talk on (or
to) your phone.
While I will miss the audio hole I won't miss the micro-USB connector.
It will be nice to plug a cable in and get it right on the first try.
Fortunately that's not a big problem on my Motorola phone with its
wireless charging and easy-to-plug-in audio jack (no dongle needed)...
nospam
2018-08-17 21:31:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
Post by abcdef
I would miss a headphone jack. However the wife has yet to
complain about her iPhone not having one. Guess it's a YMMV thing...
it has a digital headphone jack and includes headphones in the box
One size headphone fits all? No thanks. YMMV.
most people use the headphones in the box
MOST people? So you surveyed how many millions of Apple users then? My
GUESS is that MOST people are like my wife and don't use the included
headphones at all.
there are four groups of users, and not only apple:
- those who use the bundled headphones
- those who do not use any headphones (i.e., use the built in speakers)
- those who use bluetooth headphones
- those who use headphones they already own, generally high end, with a
3.5mm plug.

only the last group is affected by the change, which is why an adapter
is included.

the other three groups are not affected at all.

group 1 can use the bundled headphones.
group 2 doesn't use any headphones.
group 3 only needs to pair their bluetooth headphones with the phone.

apple knows what the breakdown is.
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
(or they use the speakers built into the phone)
Course. Everyone uses the built in phone speakers for Facebook etc, even
me. But for listening to quality music (local or streaming) the speakers
suck.
they're not that bad, but again, no need for an analog jack since you
can pair with bluetooth speakers.
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
there are also numerous third party headphones.
Perhaps. But my local stores carry STANDARD headphones in droves whereas
the Apple aisle has only one or two.
most of which are not as good as the ones bundled in the box.

or just order online.

meanwhile, bluetooth headphones are outselling wired headphones, and
these numbers are from *before* the iphone 7:
<https://www.npd.com/wps/portal/npd/us/news/press-releases/2016/bluetoot
h-capable-headphone-sales-surpass-non-bluetooth-sales/>
While the headphone category saw a 7 percent year-over-year increase
in dollar sales for the first half of 2016, Bluetooth headphones saw
double-digit growth with a 42 percent year-over-year increase in
dollar sales for the first half of the year.
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
as well as an adapter for legacy analog headphones.
Having a headphone dongle dangling? No thanks. YMMV.
nothing dangles, other than the wires that normally would.
Yeah, the dongle really does dangle. AGAIN YMMV.
it really doesn't.

the adapter adds about 2 inches to the cable. it's not even noticeable.
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
it also fully supports all bluetooth headsets and headphones.
Bluetooth? More cost, battery charge hassle, and bulk. No thanks. YMMV.
no hassles and no bulk, nor any dangling wires to get caught on
anything.
Agreed the wires can be a pain. But the battery IMO is a bigger pain.
And the Bluetooth headphones I've tried can't produce the volume I like.
Simpler is often better.
then you need to try more bluetooth headphones.

some have 5-8 hours runtime and recharge in their carrying case and are
as loud as wired headphones.
Post by abcdef
Unfortunately the tiny Bluetooth models I've tried sacrifice battery
life and are volume starved.
then you need to try more bluetooth headphones.
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
analog headphone jacks are obsolete.
Obsolete? Maybe someday. But as long as millions of phones currently
have them, not so much. We had this discussion over 2 years ago. So far
your prediction of the death of the audio hole has been greatly
exaggerated...
it's not going to change overnight but it's definitely changing.
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
there are currently a *lot* of android phones with usb-c headphone
jacks, including the google pixel, considered to be 'pure android',
PURE Android? Is that like PURE Linux?
google pixel phones don't have the crapware that other makers add
(namely samsung) and more importantly, get android updates as soon as
google releases them.

other makers take their sweet time, preferring to sell you a new phone
than update existing models.
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
the essential phone from andy rubin, who created android, as well as
several other major device makers, including motorola...
Glad my Motorola phone is still holy (hole-ee, get it? Sorry.)
for now...
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
At this stage in the game, that's hardly a surprise. Most smartphone
makers are ditching the traditional headphone jack to make phones
thinner and to embrace the wireless-headphones revolution. Even
Google, which poked fun at Apple last year for removing the
headphone jack, got rid of it on this year's Pixel 2.
Whatever sells the most cells (phones) will win.
phones with digital headphone jacks are selling quite well.

people might bitch about it, but they buy them anyway and then realize
it ain't as bad as they thought.
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
the Moto Z comes with a USB-C headphone adapter, which should
convert the audio into analog so you can plug in the headphones you
already have to listen to music or watch a movie or even talk on (or
to) your phone.
While I will miss the audio hole I won't miss the micro-USB connector.
It will be nice to plug a cable in and get it right on the first try.
yep, micro-usb sucks, especially micro-usb 3.

usb-c is much better.
Post by abcdef
Fortunately that's not a big problem on my Motorola phone with its
wireless charging and easy-to-plug-in audio jack (no dongle needed)...
people complained about wireless charging not being as fast as wired
charging. now they insist on it being there and rarely use the usb port
to charge...
Arlen Holder
2018-08-17 23:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
only the last group is affected by the change, which is why an adapter
is included.
You missed a huge group of Apple owners
- Those who "just give up" because the hardware isn't readily available

The point is that everyone who does anything in the real world is adversely
affected by the "courageous" lost functionality when they need to use a
headphone but where they can't use the speakers and where they haven't
taped an "emergency kit" to their backside just so that their iPhone works
when needed to.

In the fake world of the "walled garden", there's no issue with the
courageous loss of basic functionality on the newer iPhones.

*In the real world, courageous headphone jacks are extremely useful.*

For example, you stop off at the library, and for whatever reason, you want
to listen to something for a while. You're dead if you own an iPhone.

*If you own an iPhone, you often simply "just give up" in the real world.*

At our local library, they'll lend or sell you a three-dollar set of
earphones, but if you have one of those lost-functionality courageous
devices, you simply "just give up" again (and again, and again).

*All day, every day, Apple iPhone users are forced to "just give up".*

Sure, you can carry an "emergency kit" with you everywhere you go - but
it's lost functionality no matter how you fall into the Apple MARKETING
trap of always purposefully raping the consumer under the guile & guise of
well advertised "courageous" lost functionality.

You, nospam, spit out Apple MARKETING shills daily, so you know it well.

Apple loves to *lock* the consumer into doing exactly what Apple wants the
consumer to do. Buying exqactly what Apple wants the customer to buy. Using
exactly the apps (like the iTunes abomination for example) Apple wants the
customer to use.

*Apple is extremely Orwellian and punishingly successful in doing so.*

The punishments are clear as time and again you hear the Apple user
complaining that they have to *"just give up"* on doing even the *simplest*
of things. Like Wade Garrett did last week, and, if we ever hear back from
Ant, like Ant likely did so.

Apple isn't one of the most successful companies on the planet on
functionality - they get that money from the hapless consumers most of whom
likely who don't even comprehend that they don't have to just give up as
much as they are forced to do by Apple MARKETING decisions.

(If you want to debate those ... just ask ... I can list a lot of basic
functionality that all other platforms have that iOS does not have.)
abcdef
2018-08-18 04:16:24 UTC
Permalink
[Long group dissertation snipped] apple knows what the breakdown is.
They certainly do. At Target this afternoon I found two kinds of Apple
EarPods for sale. One with a Lightning connector and one with a STANDARD
connector. Apple ain't no fool...
Post by abcdef
my local stores carry STANDARD headphones in droves
most of which are not as good as the ones bundled in the box.
Ah, there's that "MOST" word again. Besides surveying millions of Apple
users about what headphones they use, you also came and surveyed all the
headphones that are available in my local stores too??
bluetooth headphones are outselling wired headphones,
A bit misleading since that's in DOLLAR sales. Wired headphones are
still numerically outselling Bluetooth headphones.
While the headphone category saw a 7 percent year-over-year increase
in dollar sales for the first half of 2016, Bluetooth headphones saw
double-digit growth with a 42 percent year-over-year increase in
dollar sales for the first half of the year.
some [Bluetooth headphones] have 5-8 hours runtime
Wired headphones have FOREVER run time.
and recharge in their carrying case
Wired headphones require NO charger.
and are as loud as wired headphones
That would depend on the phone's audio amp power output feeding the
wired headphones. In my case wired is louder.
google pixel phones don't have the crapware that other makers add
Crapware on my phone was a pain for me for a few days at the start. But
after a little work it's not been a problem since. I certainly wouldn't
base a phone purchase on it. And the Pixel has had its own problems.
people complained about wireless charging not being as fast as wired
charging.
I charge my phone overnight so wireless charging has never had any
issues for me. But if there's ever a problem I can always drag out the
Turbo charger that came with the phone and bring it up in 15 minutes...
nospam
2018-08-18 04:36:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
bluetooth headphones are outselling wired headphones,
A bit misleading since that's in DOLLAR sales. Wired headphones are
still numerically outselling Bluetooth headphones.
only because there's a lot of cheap shit being sold which is worse than
what's bundled with the phone.

wireless is the future. it won't happen suddenly, but the trend is
*very* clear.
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
some [Bluetooth headphones] have 5-8 hours runtime
Wired headphones have FOREVER run time.
no they don't, because the battery in the phone won't last forever.
abcdef
2018-08-18 05:19:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
bluetooth headphones are outselling wired headphones,
A bit misleading since that's in DOLLAR sales. Wired headphones are
still numerically outselling Bluetooth headphones.
only because there's a lot of cheap shit being sold which is worse
than what's bundled with the phone.
Damn. It's the cheap shit's fault!! Without it your statement wouldn't
have been misleading...
Post by nospam
Post by abcdef
Wired headphones have FOREVER run time.
no they don't, because the battery in the phone won't last forever.
That argument is a hoot. It's like saying wired headphones don't have
forever run time because I can't keep them on my head forever...
Your Name
2018-08-18 07:00:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
[Long group dissertation snipped] apple knows what the breakdown is.
They certainly do. At Target this afternoon I found two kinds of Apple
EarPods for sale. One with a Lightning connector and one with a STANDARD
connector. Apple ain't no fool...
The standard headphone jack versions still exist for those with older
devices, but they will be dropped when all the older devices with that
socket have been added to Apple's "obsolete" list.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-18 10:12:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Your Name
The standard headphone jack versions still exist for those with older
devices, but they will be dropped when all the older devices with that
socket have been added to Apple's "obsolete" list.
The fact is that Apple doesn't care jack shit about their customers.

Apple wants to extort as much money as they can out of their customers.

Apple Marketing decided that by removing functionality, they can extort
more money out of their customers.

It's really that simple - which is why all of nospam's arguments fall flat
as illogical.

Besides, it's nothing new ... EVERYTHING Apple does is to extort money out
of their customers (e.g., slow down phones secretly without telling their
own support people, eliminate second sources for apps, remove compete ting
apps, etc.).

I don't blame Apple for extorting as much money as they can out of their
customers. I blame their customers.
abcdef
2018-08-18 15:13:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Your Name
At Target this afternoon I found two kinds of Apple EarPods for
sale. One with a Lightning connector and one with a STANDARD
connector.
The standard headphone jack versions still exist for those with older
devices,
If you mean OLDER APPLE devices I would point out that some NEW Apple
devices still come with a headphone jack such as my wife's iPad Pro
purchased in January.

If you mean ALL OLDER devices I would point out that ALL the NON-APPLE
tablets sold in my local big box stores HAVE headphone jacks.

So IMO the market for wired headphones has a little life left... ;)
Post by Your Name
but they will be dropped when all the older devices with that socket
have been added to Apple's "obsolete" list.
I agree that Apple is likely drop the headphone jack soon if not already
in its upcoming models. But perhaps for the lower classes the other
manufacturers may hang in there awhile longer...
nospam
2018-08-18 15:58:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by Your Name
The standard headphone jack versions still exist for those with older
devices,
If you mean OLDER APPLE devices I would point out that some NEW Apple
devices still come with a headphone jack such as my wife's iPad Pro
purchased in January.
ipads (and macs) have a different use case than phones, plus there's
also a *lot* more internal space.

the analog headphone jack was removed on the iphone because space is
*extremely* limited in a phone and that space could be better used for
other purposes. not including it also makes it easier to seal the phone
from moisture and dirt incursion.

it's very likely that the next wave of ipads will no longer have an
analog headphone jack, particularly since they are expected to have
smaller bezels.
abcdef
2018-08-18 17:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
some NEW Apple devices still come with a headphone jack such as my
wife's iPad Pro purchased in January.
ipads (and macs) have a different use case than phones
What (audio) difference? Watching a movie on the iPad, listening to
music on the phone, it's all basically audio. Your Bluetooth arguments
don't apply to tablets also?
Post by nospam
the analog headphone jack was removed on the iphone because space is
*extremely* limited in a phone and that space could be better used
for other purposes.
A nice theory but I doubt you have a clue as to what was added to the
missing headphone jack space. I think your wired headphone = old
technology argument held more water.
Post by nospam
not including it also makes it easier to seal the phone from
moisture and dirt incursion.
A past phone of mine (HTC) was WATERPROOF to 10'. It had a headphone jack.
nospam
2018-08-18 17:41:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
some NEW Apple devices still come with a headphone jack such as my
wife's iPad Pro purchased in January.
ipads (and macs) have a different use case than phones
What (audio) difference? Watching a movie on the iPad, listening to
music on the phone, it's all basically audio. Your Bluetooth arguments
don't apply to tablets also?
i said different use case, not different audio.

in general, macs and often tablets are connected to a home theater
system or professional audio equipment (i.e., *not* headphones), if
they're connected to anything (most aren't).

a phone is often used with headphones for listening to music or
watching a video while out and about. while at home, speakers would
probably be used.

and yes, bluetooth works with tablets as well as macs. it's not just
phones.

one exceptionally cool thing about apple's airpods is you only need to
pair them with *one* device (usually the phone) and then they're
automatically paired with every other device you own, whether it's a
iphone, ipad or mac. what's even cooler is they play audio from
whatever device you're currently using (or you can switch it manually).

in other words the hassles of manually pairing, particularly pairing
and dealing with multiple devices, is a thing of the past.

also, since they are standard bluetooth, they work with android and
even older flip phones.
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
the analog headphone jack was removed on the iphone because space is
*extremely* limited in a phone and that space could be better used
for other purposes.
A nice theory but I doubt you have a clue as to what was added to the
missing headphone jack space. I think your wired headphone = old
technology argument held more water.
it's not a theory. apple explained what the extra room was for, which
is additional battery and the dual-lens camera with portrait
mode/lighting.

although the camera was at the top of the phone, the additional lens
meant other components had to move internally to accommodate
everything, particularly on the 7 (non-plus) model.

on the iphone x, the display goes to the edge, which means there is no
room underneath for an analog headphone jack.

space is at an extreme premium. the original iphone used mini sims,
later micro sims and now nano sims, all due to needing the space for
more important things.

apple wants to move to e-sims to recover the space taken up by the nano
sim, however, the carriers are fighting that because it would mean the
user could easily switch to another carrier at any time with a couple
of taps, something the carriers do *not* want.

the apple watch does have an e-sim because there is no alternative.
it's too small for a nano sim.
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
not including it also makes it easier to seal the phone from
moisture and dirt incursion.
A past phone of mine (HTC) was WATERPROOF to 10'. It had a headphone jack.
i said easier, not impossible. it's an additional hole to seal, and a
difficult one at that.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-18 22:00:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
i said easier, not impossible. it's an additional hole to seal, and a
difficult one at that
And does Apple give the consumer a break on the money they saved?

Nope.

The real reason, almost certainly, that Apple removed basic functionality
from their devices is that Apple figured they'd make more money off their
customers by doing so.

It's no more complicated than that.
abcdef
2018-08-18 22:22:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
a phone is often used with headphones for listening to music or
watching a video while out and about. while at home, speakers would
probably be used.
Not in the modern age. Three grandkids over to the house, three tablets
playing different movies or games, and three sets of (wired) headphones
to keep the peace.
Post by nospam
one exceptionally cool thing about apple's airpods is you only need
to pair them with *one* device (usually the phone) and then they're
automatically paired with every other device you own, whether it's a
iphone, ipad or mac.
My wired headphones also automatically pair with all my Android devices
and... the Wife's iPad. Just have to plug them in. But some dummy
engineer left the pairing jack off her iPhone...
Post by nospam
apple explained what the extra [missing headphone jack] room was
for, which is additional battery...
Must not be too much additional battery. The wife's iPhone 8+ and my
Motorola Droid Turbo 2 are about the same size. However the 8+ has a
2691 mAh battery while my Droid sports a 3760 mAh battery, AND room for
a headphone jack.
Post by nospam
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
not including it also makes it easier to seal the phone from
moisture and dirt incursion.
A past phone of mine (HTC) was WATERPROOF to 10'. It had a
headphone jack.
i said easier, not impossible. it's an additional hole to seal, and
a difficult one at that.
If making a waterproof headphone jack wasn't all that difficult for a
cheap phone company, you'd think a premium company could do it.

(Full disclosure: The Droid ain't waterproof either.)
sms
2018-08-19 04:20:36 UTC
Permalink
On 8/18/2018 3:22 PM, abcdef wrote:

<snip>
Post by abcdef
My wired headphones also automatically pair with all my Android devices
and... the Wife's iPad. Just have to plug them in. But some dummy
engineer left the pairing jack off her iPhone...
The actual reasons for the removal of the headphone jack made perfect sense:
1. Reduce manufacturing cost of the phone.
2. Make waterproofing easier.
3. Encourage sales of Airpods.
4. The headphone jack generates no licensing fees, the Lightning jack does.
5. Follows their philosophy of minimizing I/O ports, which is also seen
on their computers.

OTOH, the Lightning to 3.5mm adapter that they include, for now, is not
cheap. There's a DAC, and ADC, and an amplifier inside. Along with a
3.5mm jack, Lightning plug, and cable, that must cost at least 75¢ to
manufacture (aftermarket ones are about $1.40 retail), so all the cost
removed from the phone moved into a separate device.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-19 05:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
1. Reduce manufacturing cost of the phone.
2. Make waterproofing easier.
3. Encourage sales of Airpods.
4. The headphone jack generates no licensing fees, the Lightning jack does.
5. Follows their philosophy of minimizing I/O ports, which is also seen
on their computers.
OTOH, the Lightning to 3.5mm adapter that they include, for now, is not
cheap. There's a DAC, and ADC, and an amplifier inside. Along with a
3.5mm jack, Lightning plug, and cable, that must cost at least 75¢ to
manufacture (aftermarket ones are about $1.40 retail), so all the cost
removed from the phone moved into a separate device.
What I love about you, sms, is that you're educated, and hence, you speak
logical thought processes - where you comprehend the good and the bad
(unlike nospam who just childishly parrot's Apple MARKETING mantra).

I agree with you that eliminating the headphone jack functionality
- Makes iPhones more profitable to Apple
- Makes iPhones easier to waterproof (hence more profitable to Apple)
- Restricts users to Apple products (hence, more profitable to Apple)
- Generates licensing fees (hence, more profitable to Apple)
- Minimizes ports (which locks consumers into the Apple way - hence more
control and hence more profitable).

While you speak about a device which costs a buck to add to the box, you
have to remember that I bought a hardware equivalent (actually better in
almost all ways - but let's just say equivalent) 8-core LG Stylo 3 Plus for
one fifth the price of the 3-core iPhone 7 Plus, which you know has almost
nothing hardware wise better (other than RAM - but where the 3 cores will
be halved in CPU speeds in less than a year).

My point is that I agree with you that removing the headphone jack had one
positive outcome for Apple - which is it increased their profit.

But my point is that Apple doesn't pass on that to the consumer, who is
paying, in essence,over five times the cost for an essentially hardware
equivalent phone (yes, I know the bands, and the memory and the cpu - but
note the caveats which on T-Mobile doesn't matter and note that it has a
courageous headphone jack - among other features that the iPhone lacks).
nospam
2018-08-19 10:26:13 UTC
Permalink
except that only one of what you listed is relevant.

the main reason is that the space is better used for other purposes.
Post by sms
1. Reduce manufacturing cost of the phone.
negligible.
Post by sms
2. Make waterproofing easier.
yes
Post by sms
3. Encourage sales of Airpods.
no
Post by sms
4. The headphone jack generates no licensing fees, the Lightning jack does.
no
Post by sms
5. Follows their philosophy of minimizing I/O ports, which is also seen
on their computers.
no
Post by sms
OTOH, the Lightning to 3.5mm adapter that they include, for now, is not
cheap. There's a DAC, and ADC, and an amplifier inside. Along with a
3.5mm jack, Lightning plug, and cable, that must cost at least 75¢ to
manufacture (aftermarket ones are about $1.40 retail), so all the cost
removed from the phone moved into a separate device.
no.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 02:06:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
the main reason is that the space is better used for other purposes.
Hehhehheh ...

Yeah ... like using that lost functionality space to make the iPhone even
more profitable to Apple.
nospam
2018-08-20 02:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen Holder
Post by nospam
the main reason is that the space is better used for other purposes.
Hehhehheh ...
Yeah ... like using that lost functionality space to make the iPhone even
more profitable to Apple.
a whole couple of cents per unit.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 02:32:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Arlen Holder
Yeah ... like using that lost functionality space to make the iPhone even
more profitable to Apple.
a whole couple of cents per unit.
To all who read this, notice that nospam, a canonical Apple Apologist,
*conveniently* ignores almost *everything* that _logical_ sentient adults
mention - about *why* Apple removed standard wired functionality.

Here's a list by sms, for example, which nospam ignores completely:
The actual reasons for the removal of the headphone jack
made perfect sense:
1. Reduce manufacturing cost of the phone.
2. Make waterproofing easier.
3. Encourage sales of Airpods.
4. The headphone jack generates no licensing fees, the Lightning jack
does.
5. Follows their philosophy of minimizing I/O ports, which is also seen
on their computers.

And, my profit-to-Apple assessment of those valid arguments:
I agree with you that eliminating the headphone jack functionality
- Makes iPhones more profitable to Apple
- Makes iPhones easier to waterproof (hence more profitable to Apple)
- Restricts users to Apple products (hence, more profitable to Apple)
- Generates licensing fees (hence, more profitable to Apple)
- Minimizes ports (which locks consumers into the Apple way
- hence more control and thus more profitable).

The fact that sentient well-educated intelligent adults like sms and I can
discuss complexities that are completely lost on the Apple Apologist
nospam.

The question that has always puzzled me about Apple Apologists like
nospam.. is...
a. Are they really _that_ dumb?
b. Or are they just playing their silly semantic games?

Why do adult comprehensive complexities such as those sms and I discussed,
completely whoosh by the canonical Apple Apologists like nospam,
Savageduck, Lewis, ***@OnRamp, Alan Baker, Tim Streater, Jolly Roger, etc.?
nospam
2018-08-20 02:51:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen Holder
Here's a list by sms, for example, which nospam ignores completely
i didn't ignore it at all. i replied to it, as it's mostly wrong.
Post by Arlen Holder
The actual reasons for the removal of the headphone jack
the actual reasons are that it takes up space that can be better used
for more important things, it makes it easier to make it water
resistant and it's redundant because there is a digital headphone jack
already there, which is far more capable and more reliable.
Post by Arlen Holder
1. Reduce manufacturing cost of the phone.
by a few cents, if that much. it's certainly *not* a motivation to
eliminate it.
Post by Arlen Holder
2. Make waterproofing easier.
yes, as noted above.
Post by Arlen Holder
3. Encourage sales of Airpods.
nonsense. apple includes headphones *and* an adapter in the box so
nothing else needs to be bought.

iphones also have standard bluetooth, so any third party bluetooth
headset would work.
Post by Arlen Holder
4. The headphone jack generates no licensing fees, the Lightning jack does.
nonsense to that too. they include an adapter and any bluetooth headset
works fine.
Post by Arlen Holder
5. Follows their philosophy of minimizing I/O ports, which is also seen
on their computers.
also wrong.

they *added* a smart connector to the ipad, for example.

keep in mind that numerous android phones, including the google pixel
and various motorola, htc and several others do not have an analog
headphone jack, along with the very first android phone from 10 years
ago.

specifically, google does *not* include headphones with the google
pixel, so if anyone is encouraging sales of bluetooth headsets, it
would be google and their pixel buds, their version of the airpods.

tl;dr the list is bullshit.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 04:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Arlen Holder
Here's a list by sms, for example, which nospam ignores completely
i didn't ignore it at all. i replied to it, as it's mostly wrong.
Any logical adult would realize they didn't do it to save a few cents.
I don't know their profit margins, but I'm sure they're _huge_.

They wouldn't make such a faux pas, where they have to _defend_ the
decision with the idiotic take that it's a "courageous" decision to remove
basic functionality from a mobile device.

It's jut illogical what you present as their reasons.
Post by nospam
the actual reasons are that it takes up space that can be better used
for more important things, it makes it easier to make it water
resistant and it's redundant because there is a digital headphone jack
already there, which is far more capable and more reliable.
While there's no doubt that it takes up space and that the fewer holes, the
more profitably Apple can waterproof, but I'm sure we can dig up similar
hardware phones that not only cost less, and which are the same size or
smaller for equivalent features, but which have headphone jacks and which
are just as water resistant.
Post by nospam
Post by Arlen Holder
1. Reduce manufacturing cost of the phone.
by a few cents, if that much. it's certainly *not* a motivation to
eliminate it.
Agreed. They didn't do it to eliminate the cost of the basic functionality.
They removed that basic functionality for reasons that they cleverly
planned out, and it wasn't to save a few cents in costs.
Post by nospam
Post by Arlen Holder
2. Make waterproofing easier.
yes, as noted above.
Except that plenty of phones, I'm sure (based on the myriad conversations
you've had with others on this topic in the past) are as waterproof, and
cost far less than the iPhone.
Post by nospam
Post by Arlen Holder
3. Encourage sales of Airpods.
nonsense. apple includes headphones *and* an adapter in the box so
nothing else needs to be bought.
That's utterly ridiculous, where, again, either you're:
a. Too stupid to realize what you said is preposterous, or,
b. You're just playing your silly semantic games again.

As an example, how many people do you know who only have a single headphone
and have never needed to buy a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc., for use
in various situations.

The answer is almost none, almost certainly.
Hell, Even I have a dozen or more headphones, and I'm not even an
audiophile.

It's just preposterous for you to say that this one set of headphones that
Apple provides and adapter will suffice in all situations for years on end.

Apple stands to make money on all the lost equipment, damaged equipment,
worn equipment, and equipment for the various places you store stuff where
wired headphones are ubiquitous.
Post by nospam
iphones also have standard bluetooth, so any third party bluetooth
headset would work.
True. But wired headphones are vastly cheaper and already prevalent.

While bluetooth is good, if bluetooth were so fantastic, nobody would have
wired speakers plugged into their desktop computers, for example.

Bluetooth has its flaws too.
Post by nospam
Post by Arlen Holder
4. The headphone jack generates no licensing fees, the Lightning jack does.
nonsense to that too. they include an adapter and any bluetooth headset
works fine.
Except that only a fool would think that it will never be lost, and that it
will last forever, and that it will be conveniently in all places you'll be
just hanging off the trees for you to pluck out of the sky.

HINT: At my local library, they have baskets filled with wired headphones.
Post by nospam
Post by Arlen Holder
5. Follows their philosophy of minimizing I/O ports, which is also seen
on their computers.
keep in mind that numerous android phones, including the google pixel
and various motorola, htc and several others do not have an analog
headphone jack, along with the very first android phone from 10 years
ago.
You always blame Android for all the faults of Apple.
And you pick the worst examples of Android at the same time.

It's a basic trait of you Apple Apologists which we enshrined here...
What are common psychological traits of the Apple Apologists?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.ipad/2BJ0i7LtngQ>
Post by nospam
specifically, google does *not* include headphones with the google
pixel, so if anyone is encouraging sales of bluetooth headsets, it
would be google and their pixel buds, their version of the airpods.
Here are the basic traits of you Apple Apologists, where one of them is to
pick the *worst* examples and then blame Android for Apple's faults!

. You brazenly & repeatedly fabricate wholly imaginary app functionality
. You then exclaim that it's been told to us many times how to do it!
...
. You almost never back up statements with actual referenced facts
. You incessantly play childish semantic games when faced with those facts
...
. You consistently fabricate quoted content that never happened
. You then wittily respond to that imaginary quoted content as if it did!
...
. You're never purposefully helpful by helping the OP answer the question
. You post worthless retorts, all of which lack any added technical value
...
. You consistently blame Android for most of Apple's app & hardware faults
. You consistently find the absolute worst price:performance comparisons
...
. You actually believe that a well-documented process is too complex!
. You literally believe elapsed time is proof of actual resolution time.
...
. You deny facts a priori - without even reading the referenced facts!
. And then you complain about quote snipping of your silly semantic games
===========================================================================
nospam
2018-08-20 05:01:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen Holder
Any logical adult would realize they didn't do it to save a few cents.
exactly.

you're contradicting what you wrote earlier.
Post by Arlen Holder
As an example, how many people do you know who only have a single headphone
and have never needed to buy a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc., for use
in various situations.
shitloads. like, pretty much everyone i know, most of whom don't use
any headphones at all, but those who do, they use only one set, the one
that came in the box.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 05:34:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Arlen Holder
Any logical adult would realize they didn't do it to save a few cents.
exactly.
you're contradicting what you wrote earlier.
Yet again, you're either
a. An idiot, or,
b. Playing your silly semantic games.

They did it to make money.
They didn't do it to save a few cents.

Both sms and I described in adult words how they can make money by
eliminating the basic functionality.

That your child's mind is consistently missing those obvious logical point,
repeatedly, simply means you're not a logical sentient adult.

You're a canonical Apple Apologist.
Hence, you repeatedly exhibit the thought process of a child, nospam.

As you did here.
Your Name
2018-08-18 22:01:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by Your Name
At Target this afternoon I found two kinds of Apple EarPods for
sale. One with a Lightning connector and one with a STANDARD connector.
The standard headphone jack versions still exist for those with older
devices,
If you mean OLDER APPLE devices I would point out that some NEW Apple
devices still come with a headphone jack such as my wife's iPad Pro
purchased in January.
Yes, there are also some current Apple devices that do still have a
headphone jack ... so far. (One rumour is that the upcoming iPad update
will drop that socket.)
Post by abcdef
If you mean ALL OLDER devices I would point out that ALL the NON-APPLE
tablets sold in my local big box stores HAVE headphone jacks.
So IMO the market for wired headphones has a little life left... ;)
Yes, there's no reason you cannot use Apple headphones with non-Aplpe
devices ... but when Apple stops shipping devices with headphone jacks
and relegates the older devices to "obsolete" (if not before that),
then Apple will stopp selling headphone jack EarPods.
Post by abcdef
Post by Your Name
but they will be dropped when all the older devices with that socket
have been added to Apple's "obsolete" list.
I agree that Apple is likely drop the headphone jack soon if not already
in its upcoming models. But perhaps for the lower classes the other
manufacturers may hang in there awhile longer...
That's why there's an adapter to let you use headphone jack accessories
with non-headphone jack Apple devices.
abcdef
2018-08-18 22:35:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Your Name
Yes, there's no reason you cannot use Apple headphones with non-Aplpe
devices ...
Is price a reason? Target EarPods are US$29. The competition just down
the aisle with similar specs is around $19. And with the competition you
actually have a color choice...
Post by Your Name
That's why there's an adapter to let you use headphone jack
accessories with non-headphone jack Apple devices.
Ah yes. You must mean that damn dangling dongle. We discussed it earlier
in the thread.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-19 00:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Is price a reason?
Given Apple has arguably the finest MARKETING organization on the planet,
you can rest assured that Apple figured out that they'd make more money by
locking their loyal consumer into their restrictive headphone use model.

Rest assured, any price savings are NEVER passed on to that loyal customer.

Otherwise an equivalent iPhone wouldn't cost five times that a far more
functional but let's just say equivalent hardware Android device costs.

Details on the 5X price to 0X performance comparison are here:
iPhone 7 Plus v. LG Stylo 3 Plus price/performance hardware comparison
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/ls71mnkj4jk/n0FaH2e_DQAJ>

The 5-times less expensive Android phone has more functionality than any
iPhone could ever have (it has been often proven that even a five-year old
Android device has far more functionality than any iPhone ever made, for
example).

The five times more expensive 3-core (effectively) iPhone 7 Plus will have
its CPU speed (no longer secretly but still drastically and permanently)
cut to less than half in about a year, while the 8-core five times less
expensive equivalent phone will still maintain its CPU performance.

Meanwhile, the 8-core 5 times less expensive phone has a removable battery,
a 2TB sd card slot, a stylus, an FM radio, and, oh ... lest we forget, one
of those "courageous" headphone jacks!

Obviously it was long ago proven many times over that Apple iPhones provide
far less functionality to the users - but the price for Apple's loss of
functionality is five times more!

Those are all facts!
abcdef
2018-08-19 03:21:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen Holder
Post by abcdef
Is price a reason?
Given Apple has arguably the finest MARKETING organization on the
planet
Dunno about that. I think I'd give Amazon that prize. My Fire tablets
make me look at an ad before I can even access them. Course I realize
that the tablets are sold cheap with that in mind. And IMO the ads are
well done and often interesting so I've never considered paying the $30
bribe/fee to get rid of them.
Post by Arlen Holder
you can rest assured that Apple figured out that they'd make more
money by locking their loyal consumer into their restrictive
headphone use model.
Headphone use never entered into my wife's decision to get Apple
products. She's bought them for years (tablet, phone, and recently a
watch). Not sure she even used any of the headphones that came with
them. I suspect most people don't buy their phones based on headphone
type either.
Post by Arlen Holder
Rest assured, any price savings are NEVER passed on to that loyal customer.
That's actually very good business sense if sales are good. Sure wish
I'd bought some Apple stock a few years back...
Post by Arlen Holder
The 5-times less expensive Android phone has more functionality than
any iPhone could ever have
The wife has always liked Apple products because they just work. She can
do everything SHE wants to do on them without any technical know how. I
suspect that's why many folks buy them.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-19 05:14:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by Arlen Holder
Given Apple has arguably the finest MARKETING organization on the
planet
Dunno about that. I think I'd give Amazon that prize.
I don't disagree where I'd still put Apple in the top ten for Marketing.
How else can you sell a phone for five times the price of a far more
functional phone as we noted in that thread I referenced.

Apple knows it's customers are filled with *fear*, so Apple plays to that
fear.

Apple knows its customers want style - so colors are a big deal each year.

Apple knows its customers jsut play games - so emojis are also a big deal.

Yet, Apple knows its customers just use the device as a mere toy, so
functionality isn't even close to their list of important things.

Nor is working in the real world, where the real world is "not supported",
nor even tested.
Post by abcdef
My Fire tablets
make me look at an ad before I can even access them. Course I realize
that the tablets are sold cheap with that in mind. And IMO the ads are
well done and often interesting so I've never considered paying the $30
bribe/fee to get rid of them.
I never see ads.
For example, I watch all the YouTube videos I want for free, and I *never*
see a single ad. Never.

On the iPad - it's filled to the brim with ads.
But on Android - there are none.

That's what I mean about iOS being far less functional than Android.
Post by abcdef
Headphone use never entered into my wife's decision to get Apple
products. She's bought them for years (tablet, phone, and recently a
watch). Not sure she even used any of the headphones that came with
them. I suspect most people don't buy their phones based on headphone
type either.
I agree.
I buy plenty of iOS equipment - mostly as gifts.
Yes, the recipients complain about the lack of a headphone jack.

But they bought into the Orwellian iOS restrictions - so - that's what they
get.
Post by abcdef
That's actually very good business sense if sales are good. Sure wish
I'd bought some Apple stock a few years back...
Understood. It's one of the most successful companies on the planet.
Post by abcdef
The wife has always liked Apple products because they just work.
They don't actually work in the real world - and I can give you tons of
examples how.

What is *really* happening is that your wife uses iOS as a toy.
As a toy, it works fine.

Also, we proved long ago that the iOS user "just gives up" all day every
day. So your wife is like the people I give iOS devices to, mostly girls,
who aren't in the least technical.

They're so used to "just giving up" that they don't realize thye have to
just ive up all day every day. Basically iOS is crippled compared to
Android. But your wife doesn't even notice.

Likely she is happy to be imprisoned inside the walled garden.
And very very very likely she "just gives up" constantly.
Even more likely, she just punches buttons - so as long as she can figure
out the buttons to punch (she'll give up most of the time) she's happy.

Many millions of iOS users are like your wife.
They use the device just as a toy.
And that's OK.

Except that it's a VERY EXPENSIVE toy.
It can't do even the _simplest_ of things that we do on Android all day
every tday without even thinking about it.

If you challenge that, be prepared for a long list of things Android does
that iOS can't hope to do (starting with organizing your screen the way you
want, and then moving to debugging WiFI or setting defaults or recording
phone calls automatically or torrenting or just accessing your own files
over USB for heaven's sake! :()

Your wife likes the iOS toy because she isn't technical in the least almost
certainly. If she was, she'd hate iOS because it's basically crippled and
primitive (the launcher is stuck in a design of more than a decade old).
Post by abcdef
She can
do everything SHE wants to do on them without any technical know how. I
suspect that's why many folks buy them.
I agree.
Toys have their place.
All iOS devices are toys.

If the user is OK with just giving up every day, and if they stay inside
the walled garden - and if they never do anything in the real world -
they're fine.

But it's still a toy.
abcdef
2018-08-19 06:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen Holder
Apple knows its customers want style - so colors are a big deal each year.
Same with many Android phones (and tablets).
Post by Arlen Holder
On the iPad - it's filled to the brim with ads.
Where?
Post by Arlen Holder
But on Android - there are none.
Lots of ads on my Fire tablets currently running a forked Android 5.2.
Post by Arlen Holder
I buy plenty of iOS equipment - mostly as gifts. Yes, the recipients
complain about the lack of a headphone jack.
Boy your gift recipients are really assholes. Give them a premium $$$
phone and all they can do is complain about a missing headphone jack??
Post by Arlen Holder
They [Apple products] don't actually work in the real world...
If Apple products didn't work to their customers satisfaction in the
real world then Apple certainly wouldn't be a rich company in the real
world.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-19 08:31:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by Arlen Holder
Apple knows its customers want style - so colors are a big deal each year.
Same with many Android phones (and tablets).
Not really. There is a huge *range* of Android devices.
The Apple devices don't have the range.

Also, the Android customer isn't driven by intense fear.
Ask *any* iPhone owner why they buy their iPhone.

You'll hear their intense *fear* come out most of the time.
Also the Apple customer is driven by style.

That's why they care about silly colors.
And, they don't care about actual functionality - for example, they care
greatly about silly childish emojis.

Clearly these are three factors of the typical iPhone customer:
a. Driven by fear
b. Driven by style
c. Doesn't care about functionality
Post by abcdef
Post by Arlen Holder
On the iPad - it's filled to the brim with ads.
Where?
We've had this discussion on the iPad/iPhone group so many times it's not
funny. On iOS, the YouTube app is filled to the brim with ads. So is the
Android YouTube app - but - get this - there's a free replacement for
YouTube which not only does MORE - but it never has ads.

We've discussed this so many times it's not funny.
(Where have you been?)

Here's just one...
Why doesn't iOS have a single free app that completely replaces the
YouTube app entirely (with far more powerful functionality)?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.ipad/5b-iz8Uj7xU/TOPREZNPBAAJ>
Post by abcdef
Post by Arlen Holder
But on Android - there are none.
Lots of ads on my Fire tablets currently running a forked Android 5.2.
You haven't been paying attention.

Here's the hilarious attempt by the iOS Apologists to claim their wholly
imaginary functionality to combat the actual functionality of Android...
Nospam posted just now that New Pipe YouTube "red" functionality exists on
iOS
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.ipad/3nmdadrrl3s/ZTsS-QR5AAAJ>
Post by abcdef
Post by Arlen Holder
I buy plenty of iOS equipment - mostly as gifts. Yes, the recipients
complain about the lack of a headphone jack.
Boy your gift recipients are really assholes. Give them a premium $$$
phone and all they can do is complain about a missing headphone jack??
They have every right to complain about lost functionality.

Almost everything about iOS is less functional than Android (which we've
proven time and again so many times that it's not funny).

Why would you ever state that expecting the most basic of functionality in
an iPhone is being an "asshole"?
Post by abcdef
Post by Arlen Holder
They [Apple products] don't actually work in the real world...
If Apple products didn't work to their customers satisfaction in the
real world then Apple certainly wouldn't be a rich company in the real
world.
Agreed.

The iPhone is one of the best MARKETED consumer devices in history.

It's not functional - but Apple knows the customer doesn't care.
a. The Apple customer is driven by abject *fear*, and,
b. The Apple customer is an ignorant slave to *style*, and,
c. The Apple customer is childishly wowed by silly toys (e.g., emojis).

We've discussed this many times in the past.
(Where have you been?)
iOS is really moving forward with this new announcement from Apple of "big
things" happening
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.ipad/m9aLeALeCWY/cICpfWs0BQAJ>
abcdef
2018-08-19 17:55:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by Arlen Holder
Apple knows its customers want style - so colors are a big deal each year.
Same with many Android phones (and tablets).
Not really. There is a huge *range* of Android devices. The Apple
devices don't have the range.
You're mixing up one company (Apple) with an OS (Android-many
companies). Likely some Android companies have more color selections
than Apple and others less.
Ask *any* iPhone owner why they buy their iPhone.
I would guess that they would say because they like it. Why would anyone
buy a expensive premium product they didn't like?
Also the Apple customer is driven by style.
Many are driven by style, and not just in phones.
That's why they care about silly colors.
Do you live in a pink and purple house? Probably not. So you also care
about colors...
Post by abcdef
Post by Arlen Holder
On the iPad - it's filled to the brim with ads.
Where?
We've had this discussion on the iPad/iPhone group so many times
it's not funny. On iOS,
Not being an iOS owner myself I don't subscribe to any of the groups.
But I do seem to get sucked in often by cross-posters.
the YouTube app is filled to the brim with ads. So is the Android
YouTube app - but - get this - there's a free replacement for
YouTube which not only does MORE - but it never has ads.
So the iPad itself isn't filled to the brim with ads as you said, just
the apps? Same on Android.
Why doesn't iOS have a single free app that completely replaces the
YouTube app entirely
Cause the numbers say people are happy with YouTube?
Post by abcdef
Lots of ads on my Fire tablets currently running a forked Android 5.2.
You haven't been paying attention.
Just dodging the facts ma'am... ;)
Post by abcdef
Post by Arlen Holder
I buy plenty of iOS equipment - mostly as gifts. Yes, the
recipients complain about the lack of a headphone jack.
Boy your gift recipients are really assholes. Give them a premium
$$$ phone and all they can do is complain about a missing
headphone jack??
They have every right to complain about lost functionality.
Gift recipients have the right to complain, but apparently they don't
have the social smarts not to. Someone complains about a premium gift
from me and it will be their last. Course if they are suck up gifts to
your social or business betters then other rules apply...
Your Name
2018-08-19 22:30:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by abcdef
Post by Arlen Holder
Apple knows its customers want style - so colors are a big deal each year.
Same with many Android phones (and tablets).
Not really. There is a huge *range* of Android devices. The Apple
devices don't have the range.
You're mixing up one company (Apple) with an OS (Android-many
companies). Likely some Android companies have more color selections
than Apple and others less.
People always do that silly comparison. They do the same with "Mac" vs
"PC", where they are loads of PC hardware makers.
Post by abcdef
Ask *any* iPhone owner why they buy their iPhone.
I would guess that they would say because they like it. Why would anyone
buy a expensive premium product they didn't like?
Apple's prices may be "premium", but they aren't over-priced. The high
end phones from other makers like Samsung cost about the same price ...
usually priced only a few dollars lower in a lazy attempt to undercut
Apple's price.
Post by abcdef
Also the Apple customer is driven by style.
Many are driven by style, and not just in phones.
That's why they care about silly colors.
Do you live in a pink and purple house? Probably not. So you also care
about colors...
<snip>

There are a bazillion and one cases around for those who want a
different colour. Most people use a case of some sort with their mobile
phone (and many tablets) anyway, so the colour of the phone itself is
pretty irrelevant.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 02:06:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Your Name
Apple's prices may be "premium", but they aren't over-priced. The high
end phones from other makers like Samsung cost about the same price ...
usually priced only a few dollars lower in a lazy attempt to undercut
Apple's price.
You throw platitudes around without ever using your brain even once.

You, like nospam, can easily find ooodles of bad price-to-performance
hardware comparisons. They abound. Everywhere.

It takes zero brains for you to find _bad_ price-performance comparisons.
None.
ANd you proved that. In spades.

*It takes brains to find a good price-to-performance hardware comparison.*

For those with brains, you can get five (5) more functional 8-core Android
phones for the price of a single (1) far less functional 3-core iOS device.

And, that more-functional Android device will not be (secretly in the
past), drastically, and permanently throttled to less than half the
original CPU speeds in about a year.

Referencce for the hardware comparison:
iPhone 7 Plus vs LG Stylo 3 Plus price/performance hardware comparison
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/ls71mnkj4jk/n0FaH2e_DQAJ>
abcdef
2018-08-20 04:44:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Your Name
There are a bazillion and one cases around for those who want a
different colour.
My Motorola phone has a shatterproof screen (that I've unintentionally
tested a few times) so don't need the extra bulk of a case. However if I
were color conscious the rear panel can be replaced with different
color panels. But I'm not color conscious... :-/
Your Name
2018-08-20 07:13:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by Your Name
There are a bazillion and one cases around for those who want a
different colour.
My Motorola phone has a shatterproof screen (that I've unintentionally
tested a few times) so don't need the extra bulk of a case. However if I
were color conscious the rear panel can be replaced with different
color panels. But I'm not color conscious... :-/
Cases aren't just in case of dropping the phone. Many cases aren't
really much help for that anyway.

They are really to help with normal wear and tear, and scuffing such as
scratching against keys, or those weird old things called coins" ;-) in
pockets ... but in today's throw-away society that isn't as much of a
concern for many people since they'll bin the old phone and buy a new
one when the next latest model gets released.
abcdef
2018-08-20 16:54:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Your Name
Post by abcdef
My Motorola phone has a shatterproof screen (that I've
unintentionally tested a few times)
When the Motorola Droid Turbo 2 (Verizon branding in the US, called a
Moto X Force elsewhere) first came out, it was advertised as the world's
first shatterproof screen. So of course lots of people wanted to test it
for YouTube. Most just dropped it from various heights using ladders,
etc. But the funny one was a guy who ran over it with a car. The screen
survived but... the phone broke. :)

For the iPeople here there's also a video some of you may remember of a
guy who stood in line for an hour or so to buy a 1st day newly released
iPhone. While he was opening the box for the first time in front of a
local TV news crew he fumbled and dropped it shattering the screen. Talk
about having a bad day. :(

You may wonder why I think the first story funny and the second sad
since in both cases the phone broke. Well IMO the Android guy was asking
for it doing a dumb thing while the iGuy was just having a bad day.

Yes Arlen, there are a number dumb Android owners out there, Check it
out on your YouTube... ;)
Post by Your Name
Cases aren't just in case of dropping the phone. Many cases aren't
really much help for that anyway.
The wife's iPhone 8+ has a popsocket AND a makeup mirror glued to the
back of its case. Wonder how it will survive a drop... 8-O
Post by Your Name
They are really to help with normal wear and tear, and scuffing such
as scratching against keys, or those weird old things called coins"
;-) in pockets ...
My phone is now 2 years old (just paid off). It's in pretty good shape
but I usually carry it in a belt holster. Going into Disneyland they
made me lift my shirt cause it looks like I'm carrying...
Post by Your Name
but in today's throw-away society that isn't as much of a concern for
many people since they'll bin the old phone
I've always give my old phones to one of my grandkids and they use them
for a small tablet (like an iPod).
Post by Your Name
and buy a new one when the next latest model gets released.
Hmmmm. Interesting thought. And my phone is reallly old...
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 02:06:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
You're mixing up one company (Apple) with an OS (Android-many
companies). Likely some Android companies have more color selections
than Apple and others less.
Agreed.

I was comparing the ecosystems, where, the Apple ecosystem customer is
a. Consumed by an abject fear such that key decisions are fear based
b. Consumed by an intense desire to be stylish (e.g., colors)
c. Not at all concerned with actually app functionality (obviously)

There may be Android customers similarly almost completely consumed by fear
such that all their buying decisions are made simply to allay their intense
fears, where they'd buy into Android Marketing hype as much as the Apple
customer buys into Apple MARKETING hype.
Post by abcdef
Post by Arlen Holder
Ask *any* iPhone owner why they buy their iPhone.
I would guess that they would say because they like it. Why would anyone
buy a expensive premium product they didn't like?
1. 2. 3.
Fear. Style. Walled-garden ease.

You can trust me when I say I've asked EVERY Apple owner I know well WHY on
earth they selected such a clearly non-functional product and they all say
the same things.

1. They feel that Apple protects them from harmful things
2. They feel that the iOS devices are "stylish"
3. They love that some things work well inside the walled garden

Fear.
Style
Walled garden.

That's why people buy iOS products.
Functionality is never on that list.

It can't be since clearly even a five-year old Android phone has more app
functionality than any iPhone ever made.
Post by abcdef
Post by Arlen Holder
Also the Apple customer is driven by style.
Many are driven by style, and not just in phones.
I bought an LG Stylo 3 Plus. Guess what color it came in.
Lots of people are not driven by trying to be stylish.

A simple test is that I could have bought a five-times-more expensive
iPhone 7 Plus, which would have been far less functional but which may have
been stylish to some.

But I don't care about style.
I don't care about colors.
My decisions aren't driven by abject fear.

I look for price-to-performance value.

You can buy five 8-core Android phones for the price of a 3-core far
less-functional but let's just say hardware equivalent iPhone for heaven's
sake.

People pay a *lot* for the illusion of style.
Post by abcdef
Post by Arlen Holder
That's why they care about silly colors.
Do you live in a pink and purple house? Probably not. So you also care
about colors...
Ahem... the LG Stylo 3 Plus comes in one color (AFAIK).
Plus, my case is black so if the phone was any color, it wouldn't matter.

Rest assured I wouldn't pay five times the price for a less functional
iPhone simply for color.

And remember always, that *top* on the list of the MARKETING blurbs we've
seen from Apple, are "emojis" and "colors".

Always keep in mind if Apple puts such things top on their list, that Apple
knows the iPhone customer extremely well.

Never ever make the mistake of thinking Apple MARKETING isn't one of the
best in the world - where - if _they_ put color anywhere near the top -
then color is *extremely important* to iPhone customers!
Apple planning new iPhone X color option to restore sales
<https://9to5mac.com/2018/03/25/new-iphone-x-color-report/>

What's funny is that even the "tech news" parrots this meaningless color
thing...
<What iPhone X color should you buy>
https://www.imore.com/iphone-x-colors

iPhone X 2018: Apple Is Adding More Color To The iPhone Lineup
<https://www.inquisitr.com/4976372/iphone-x-2018-apple-is-adding-more-color-to-the-iphone-lineup-literally/>

iPhone X Colors: Tim Cook is pulling out all the stops.
<https://www.inverse.com/article/37671-apple-iphone-x-colors>
Post by abcdef
Not being an iOS owner myself I don't subscribe to any of the groups.
But I do seem to get sucked in often by cross-posters.
Suffice to say we've proven time and again that iOS is basically non
functional compared to Android when it comes to app functionality.

The well-proven summary is:
a. There's so much on Android not on iOS that it isn't funny
b. There is _nothing_ on iOS that isn't _already_ on Android

There is a good reason for all this - where it's a logical outcome of the
Orwellian restrictions Apple puts on the apps and abilities of those apps,
since the hardware is "about the same" year in and year out (where Apple
iOS devices are never on top but they are usually within the bottom of the
top ten in most hardware comparisons over the years).
Post by abcdef
So the iPad itself isn't filled to the brim with ads as you said, just
the apps? Same on Android.
Jesus. Try reading for comprehension.
Or clicking on the links.
Please - don't say stupid things like that.

Just read this article before you say stupid things like you just did.
I know you're not an Apple Apologist, so you're not being thick on purpose
- but you have to *think* before you say such things.

Please think first.
If I quote a reference, then don't refute the reference like Alan Baker
did, without even *reading* the reference for heaven's sake.

Is there a YouTube player with no ads app like AT New Pipe for Windows?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/b3vWA2G2HLI/IBnekmpWBwAJ>

Here's a quote from that *windows* & *android* post, for example:
All I am asking is if you know of a Windows YouTube red clone that
[1] Searches and plays any YouTube video
[2] Never ever requires a log in or account (to watch anything)
[3] Never shows ads no matter what
[4] Downloads the current video at the touch of a button
[5] Extracts and downloads the audio at the touch of a button
[6] Downloads any number of audios or videos in the background
[7] Without any effort whatsoever

Although, it was clear in that thread that Windows users are just as
fantastically clueless as Apple users sometimes.

Just like Apple users are stuck on the iTunes abomination as the only way
they can think, in that thread, the Windows users were stuck like you can't
believe on web-based solutions - even when the question had *nothing* to do
with the web.
Post by abcdef
Post by Arlen Holder
Why doesn't iOS have a single free app that completely replaces the
YouTube app entirely
Cause the numbers say people are happy with YouTube?
If you could get, for free, without any loss of functionality whatsoever,
the following, why wouldn't you do it?
[1] Never asks for a log in
[2] Searches for YouTube videos just like the YouTube app does
[3] Plays those YouTube videos just like the YouTube app does
[4] Plays any YouTube video you want (even age restricted stuff)
[5] Never shows an ad (without you doing anything by way of setup)
[6] Downloads those videos (any number of them, in the background)
[7] Extracts the audio (if desired), any number of them, in the bg
Post by abcdef
Just dodging the facts ma'am... ;)
If I provide a reference, do not refute the reference without actually
*reading* it ... that's a common trait of the Apple Apologists like Alan
Baker - but it's not a trait of intelligent people.
Post by abcdef
Gift recipients have the right to complain, but apparently they don't
have the social smarts not to. Someone complains about a premium gift
from me and it will be their last. Course if they are suck up gifts to
your social or business betters then other rules apply...
These are all close relatives that I give gifts to.
Usually the less-technical girls want the Apple equipment.
The boys don't care. Usually they're far more functionally inclined.

Most kids I give the iPhones to don't seem to be driven so much by abject
fear (which nospam and Jolly Roger exude in many posts); they're more
driven by style and the ability to work smoothly inside the walled garden.

All users of iPhones must "just give up" all day, every day, simply because
the easiest things to do on Android can't easily be done on iOS - but most
kids, IMHO, who love Apple, don't even notice that they "just give up" all
the time since they aren't technically inclined.

So they "just give up" on Windows just as much as they do on the iPhone, in
my experience watching how they do things. As an example, they don't know
how to access read and write their entire visible iOS file system, using
only native software, simply by connecting the device to their desktop.
nospam
2018-08-20 02:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen Holder
What's funny is that even the "tech news" parrots this meaningless color
thing...
<What iPhone X color should you buy>
what color android phone should you buy:

<https://www.androidcentral.com/what-color-galaxy-s9-should-you-buy>
The Galaxy S9 and S9+ have very subtle design differences compared to
the Galaxy S8 and S8+, but one clear way to recognize them at a
glance are their new colors. Midnight Black, Lilac Purple, Coral
Blue, Titanium Gray and Sunrise Gold are the color options, and aside
from black they're all fresh hues we haven't seen before.

<https://www.androidcentral.com/what-color-htc-u11-should-you-buy>
The HTC U11's big design feature is its pristine curved glass back,
which has a unique color infusing process to bake the colors into the
glass rather than layering on top or underneath. It's a look that you
can't get from any other glass-backed phone, and it means you may be
taking extra care in choosing which color HTC U11 you want to buy.

<https://www.essential.com/blog/essential-phone-new-colors>
New, Limited Edition Colors: Ocean Depths, Stellar Gray and Copper
Black

<https://www.androidauthority.com/why-colors-matter-846211/>
Samsung Galaxy S9 in lilac purple
Huawei P20 in twilight
OnePlus 6 in mirror black and powder white
HTC U12 Plus in translucent blue
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 02:32:01 UTC
Permalink
As you always do, nospam, you find the *worst* features of humans to blame
all of Apple's foibles upon Android ...

Hence, this is the most recent set of Apple Apologist traits you exhibit!
===========================================================================
. You brazenly & repeatedly fabricate wholly imaginary app functionality
. You then exclaim that it's been told to us many times how to do it!
...
. You almost never back up statements with actual referenced facts
. You incessantly play childish semantic games when faced with those facts
...
. You consistently fabricate quoted content that never happened
. You then wittily respond to that imaginary quoted content as if it did!
...
. You're never purposefully helpful by helping the OP answer the question
. You post worthless retorts, all of which lack any added technical value
...
. You consistently blame Android for most of Apple's app & hardware faults
. You consistently find the absolute worst price:performance comparisons
...
. You actually believe that a well-documented process is too complex!
. You literally believe elapsed time is proof of actual resolution time.
...
. You deny facts a priori - without even reading the referenced facts!
. And then you complain about quote snipping of your silly semantic games
===========================================================================
Alan Baker
2018-08-19 05:14:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen Holder
Post by abcdef
Is price a reason?
Given Apple has arguably the finest MARKETING organization on the planet,
you can rest assured that Apple figured out that they'd make more money by
locking their loyal consumer into their restrictive headphone use model.
Rest assured, any price savings are NEVER passed on to that loyal customer.
Otherwise an equivalent iPhone wouldn't cost five times that a far more
functional but let's just say equivalent hardware Android device costs.
iPhone 7 Plus v. LG Stylo 3 Plus price/performance hardware comparison
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/ls71mnkj4jk/n0FaH2e_DQAJ>
The 5-times less expensive Android phone has more functionality than any
iPhone could ever have (it has been often proven that even a five-year old
Android device has far more functionality than any iPhone ever made, for
example).
The five times more expensive 3-core (effectively) iPhone 7 Plus will have
its CPU speed (no longer secretly but still drastically and permanently)
cut to less than half in about a year, while the 8-core five times less
expensive equivalent phone will still maintain its CPU performance.
Meanwhile, the 8-core 5 times less expensive phone has a removable battery,
a 2TB sd card slot, a stylus, an FM radio, and, oh ... lest we forget, one
of those "courageous" headphone jacks!
Obviously it was long ago proven many times over that Apple iPhones provide
far less functionality to the users - but the price for Apple's loss of
functionality is five times more!
Those are all facts!
Amazingly (to you, I'm sure), you saying 'Those are all facts!'...

...doesn't actually make them facts.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-19 05:26:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Amazingly (to you, I'm sure), you saying 'Those are all facts!'...
...doesn't actually make them facts.
The facts I posted are facts which *all* sentient adults agree with.
Facts are funny that way.

Only the Apple Apologists disagree with valid facts.

It's a trait of the Apple Apologists that facts don't fit into your
imaginary belief system.

For example, you dispute the facts a priori - and yet - you can't name a
single fact that was presented which isn't a fact.

It's amazing that people like you don't care one whit about your utter lack
of credibility. Facts are just silly games for you to play with.

I think, after pondering why you Apple Apologists are so immune to facts,
that you're all lacking in formal education.

While I'm extremely well educated, you have none.
It's clear as day - based on your utter aversion to facts.

You, Jolly Roger, Lewis, nospam, ***@ONRamp, etc, all of you likely don't
even have a high school education, and it's certain (IMHO) that you all
lack even an undergraduate degree.

You're all really _that_ ill educated.
Hence, to you, your credibility is worthless.

Nobody ever taught you that facts are never wrong - which is why I'm never
wrong - since I only speak facts.

To you, facts don't fit into your imaginary belief system.

It's obvious in everything you say - where you prove me right in every
post.
Alan Baker
2018-08-19 05:28:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen Holder
Post by Alan Baker
Amazingly (to you, I'm sure), you saying 'Those are all facts!'...
...doesn't actually make them facts.
The facts I posted are facts which *all* sentient adults agree with.
Facts are funny that way.
Assertions don't make it so.
Post by Arlen Holder
Only the Apple Apologists disagree with valid facts.
Assumes facts you haven't actually proven...

<rest of rant snipped>
Arlen Holder
2018-08-19 05:42:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Assumes facts you haven't actually proven...
Do you see how its' so easy to see that you have no formal education?
You disdain facts - and yet - you can't name a single one.

All you Apple Apologists lack formal education.
It's sad actually ... that people like you are so ill educated.

You can't name a single fact about the hardware comparison you disagree
with. You didn't even _read_ the hardware comparison!

You know how I know that?
Hehheh ... you probably don't.

You're _that_ stupid.
Alan Baker
2018-08-19 05:45:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen Holder
Post by Alan Baker
Assumes facts you haven't actually proven...
Do you see how its' so easy to see that you have no formal education?
Assumes facts you don't even have a way of knowing.
Post by Arlen Holder
You disdain facts - and yet - you can't name a single one.
I don't disdain facts.

I just don't accept that you saying "this is a fact" makes something an
actual fact.
Post by Arlen Holder
All you Apple Apologists lack formal education.
It's sad actually ... that people like you are so ill educated.
You can't name a single fact about the hardware comparison you disagree
with. You didn't even _read_ the hardware comparison!
You know how I know that?
Hehheh ... you probably don't.
You're _that_ stupid.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-19 05:52:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Assumes facts you don't even have a way of knowing.
Hehheh... proof you, Alan Baker, don't even know what facts you dispute!

Your entire dispute with facts is imaginary - like everything else for you.

*Facts don't fit into your imaginary belief system.*

You prove that in every post.
Alan Baker
2018-08-19 05:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen Holder
Post by Alan Baker
Assumes facts you don't even have a way of knowing.
Hehheh... proof you, Alan Baker, don't even know what facts you dispute!
No, actually.

You've snipped your assertion (what a surprise)!
Arlen Holder
2018-08-19 08:31:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
You've snipped your assertion (what a surprise)!
Bear in mind, all you _can_ do is play your silly games.
I've watched you Apple Apologists for more than a decade.

You're all children - just like you Alan Baker.
Stupid too. No education whatsoever.

You deny facts - and yet - you can't even *name* the facts you deny! :)
You're actually _that_ stupid, Alan Baker.

In fact, all you Apple Apologists are almost exactly alike.
What are well-verified psychological traits of the Apple Apologists?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.ipad/2BJ0i7LtngQ>
Alan Baker
2018-08-19 13:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen Holder
Post by Alan Baker
You've snipped your assertion (what a surprise)!
Bear in mind, all you _can_ do is play your silly games.
I've watched you Apple Apologists for more than a decade.
Explain why you suddenly snipped the claim to which I was replying.

<rest of ranting snipped>
Tim Streater
2018-08-19 13:55:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Arlen Holder
Post by Alan Baker
You've snipped your assertion (what a surprise)!
Bear in mind, all you _can_ do is play your silly games.
I've watched you Apple Apologists for more than a decade.
Explain why you suddenly snipped the claim to which I was replying.
<rest of ranting snipped>
Haven't we seen this troll before? Why not just KF him?
--
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed
(and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an
endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.

HL Mencken
Arlen Holder
2018-08-19 15:38:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Explain why you suddenly snipped the claim to which I was replying.
I just added this latest Apple Apologist trait to the thread on the topic!
What are common psychological traits of the Apple Apologists?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.ipad/2BJ0i7LtngQ/LwsRbuq4DwAJ>

This is generally established proper Usenet protocol for quoting content:
<https://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.1>
You quote the singular concept you're responding to.

It's *another* trait of the Apple Apologists that, when they play their
silly semantic games, they expect everyone to play along with their silly
semantic games.

It's how they pull every thread off topic off the actual facts and
endlessly onto whatever silly game they're currently playing.

And yet - the topic is clear.

You, Alan Baker, deny facts - and yet - you don't even state which facts
you deny!

It's a common trait of all you Apple Apologists.
a. You deny facts a priori,
b. And yet - you can't even come up with a single fact that you deny!
Your Name
2018-08-19 06:24:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by Your Name
Yes, there's no reason you cannot use Apple headphones with non-Aplpe
devices ...
Is price a reason? Target EarPods are US$29. The competition just down
the aisle with similar specs is around $19.
Similar specs? Maybe. Similar sound quality? possibly

Apple's "coolness" factor ... nope, not a chance. Buying these Apple
Earpods means any dweeb can hide their $20 Android phone in their
pocket and walk around pretending they actually bought an iPhone. ;-)
Post by abcdef
And with the competition you actually have a color choice...
Ahh, you want a choice of colours. Try this company for colour Apple EarPods:
<https://www.colorware.com/p-743-apple-airpods.aspx>

or, if you're a cheapskate, there's always these:
<https://earskinz.com/
Post by abcdef
Post by Your Name
That's why there's an adapter to let you use headphone jack
accessories with non-headphone jack Apple devices.
Ah yes. You must mean that damn dangling dongle. We discussed it earlier
in the thread.
It's doesn't need to be a dangling dongle. The ElementDigital Dual
Lightning Splitter Adapter is a small tube that attaches to the bottom
of the iOS device, and off one end is a regular headphone jack and on
the other end is another Ligthning socket. The Amazon link for this one
no longer works, so maybe it's not for sale any more (could try eBay),
but there's also the similar Tessin iPhone 7/8/X Adapter and Splitter.
<https://www.amazon.com/TESSIN-Splitter-Lightning-Headphone-Compatible/dp/B07857L1KD/>


But, it doesn't even need to be a plug-in adaptor. Griffin makes the
iTrip Clip, which is a headphone adaptor into which you can plug
regular wired headphones, and it connects to the iOS device via
Bluetooth ... you'll then have wireless-wired headphones. :-)
<https://griffintechnology.com/itrip-clip-bluetooth-headphone-adapter>
abcdef
2018-08-19 06:45:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Your Name
Apple's "coolness" factor ... nope, not a chance. Buying these Apple
Earpods means any dweeb can hide their $20 Android phone in their
pocket and walk around pretending they actually bought an iPhone.
;-)
Those Target (non-Apple) standard headphones also come in white. So you
can buy them, save 10 bucks, and still look cool... ;)
Post by Your Name
It's doesn't need to be a dangling dongle...
That dangling dongle discussion was a bit of tongue in cheek thing for
me. Since I'm not planning on buying any Apple products anytime soon,
and the wife has never even used the headphone that came with her
iPhone, the problem that never was has pretty much been solved in this
family...
Your Name
2018-08-19 07:33:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by Your Name
Apple's "coolness" factor ... nope, not a chance. Buying these Apple
Earpods means any dweeb can hide their $20 Android phone in their
pocket and walk around pretending they actually bought an iPhone. ;-)
Those Target (non-Apple) standard headphones also come in white. So you
can buy them, save 10 bucks, and still look cool... ;)
Ah, but they don't look the same ... unless the manufacturer is Chinese
and doesn't care about Apple lawsuits.
Post by abcdef
Post by Your Name
It's doesn't need to be a dangling dongle...
That dangling dongle discussion was a bit of tongue in cheek thing for
me. Since I'm not planning on buying any Apple products anytime soon,
and the wife has never even used the headphone that came with her
iPhone, the problem that never was has pretty much been solved in this
family...
Very few people use the headphones, with any phone. Mainly because for
most people the mobile phone is simply a messaging device - basically a
glorified two-way pager.

In the old days Apple shipped a microphone with all Macs which very few
people used that either (even less once the 'novelty' of recording
raspberry noises wore off.)

More recently Apple used to ship a remote control with every Mac, but
very few people used that either.

The stickers / decals Apple put in the boxes got more use than any of
those extras.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-19 08:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Your Name
Very few people use the headphones, with any phone. Mainly because for
most people the mobile phone is simply a messaging device - basically a
glorified two-way pager.
Speak for yourself that you use the iPhone as a mere toy.

I guess that's ok though - as it won't work in the real world anyway.
abcdef
2018-08-19 17:55:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Your Name
Post by abcdef
Post by Your Name
Apple's "coolness" factor ... nope, not a chance. Buying these
Apple Earpods means any dweeb can hide their $20 Android phone
in their pocket and walk around pretending they actually bought
an iPhone. ;-)
Those Target (non-Apple) standard headphones also come in white.
So you can buy them, save 10 bucks, and still look cool... ;)
Ah, but they don't look the same ... unless the manufacturer is
Chinese and doesn't care about Apple lawsuits.
Yes, I suppose those who care about such things would immediately
recognize the headphone imposters. But the lookalike wearers are safe
from the likes of me. When I see white headphones, wired or not, I
immediately think Apple. (Me? Brainwashed?? ;)
Post by Your Name
Post by abcdef
That dangling dongle discussion was a bit of tongue in cheek thing
for me.
Very few people use the headphones, with any phone.
Agreed.

I was happy and surprised to find that my Motorola phone had
exceptional audio not only in fidelity but also in volume. After adding
an equalizer app to adjust the frequency spectrum to match my older ears
it turned out to be better than any of my mp3 players. So I am a happy
exception.
Post by Your Name
for most people the mobile phone is simply a messaging device -
basically a glorified two-way pager.
Many of my friends and family have abandoned their home phones and use
the mobile as their ONLY phone.
Your Name
2018-08-19 22:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by Your Name
Post by abcdef
Post by Your Name
Apple's "coolness" factor ... nope, not a chance. Buying these Apple
Earpods means any dweeb can hide their $20 Android phone
in their pocket and walk around pretending they actually bought
an iPhone. ;-)
Those Target (non-Apple) standard headphones also come in white.
So you can buy them, save 10 bucks, and still look cool... ;)
Ah, but they don't look the same ... unless the manufacturer is Chinese
and doesn't care about Apple lawsuits.
Yes, I suppose those who care about such things would immediately
recognize the headphone imposters. But the lookalike wearers are safe
from the likes of me. When I see white headphones, wired or not, I
immediately think Apple. (Me? Brainwashed?? ;)
Post by Your Name
Post by abcdef
That dangling dongle discussion was a bit of tongue in cheek thing for me.
Very few people use the headphones, with any phone.
Agreed.
I was happy and surprised to find that my Motorola phone had
exceptional audio not only in fidelity but also in volume. After adding
an equalizer app to adjust the frequency spectrum to match my older ears
it turned out to be better than any of my mp3 players. So I am a happy
exception.
Post by Your Name
for most people the mobile phone is simply a messaging device -
basically a glorified two-way pager.
Many of my friends and family have abandoned their home phones and use
the mobile as their ONLY phone.
The phone companies here in New Zealand have that option. You can even
keep your old landline phone number and have the calls forwarded to
your mobile, or even a group of mobiles.

There's also the option of plugging a landline phone into your internet
modem, so those with a fibre or home-4G connection don't need the old
copper landline wiring coming into the house from the street.

But the reality is that people are making and receiving fewer and fewer
actual phone calls these days. Most communication on mobile phones is
via various messaging apps, TXTing, and less so on phones via email.
abcdef
2018-08-20 04:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Your Name
Post by abcdef
Many of my friends and family have abandoned their home phones and
use the mobile as their ONLY phone.
The phone companies here in New Zealand have that option. You can
even keep your old landline phone number and have the calls forwarded
to your mobile, or even a group of mobiles.
We have similar phone number options here in the states. But I get so
many junk calls these days I probably will just abandon my number if
(when?) I cut the cord.
Post by Your Name
There's also the option of plugging a landline phone into your
internet modem, so those with a fibre or home-4G connection don't
need the old copper landline wiring coming into the house from the
street.
While I do have landline twisted pair phone service available, my home
phone is currently provided by my cable company (bundle) and shares a
modem with my Internet service. The cable TV has its own separate modem.
Post by Your Name
Most communication on mobile phones is via various messaging apps,
TXTing, and less so on phones via email.
Yup. Most of my extended family communications are by text these days.
Frank Slootweg
2018-08-19 18:38:51 UTC
Permalink
Your Name <***@yourisp.com> wrote:
[...]
Post by Your Name
Very few people use the headphones, with any phone.
You're kidding, right!?

Many - especially younger - people use headphones - wired or wireless
- with their smartphones, when they're outdoors.
Post by Your Name
Mainly because for
most people the mobile phone is simply a messaging device - basically a
glorified two-way pager.
That's one of them there trolls/flamebaits, isn't it!?
Arlen Holder
2018-08-19 08:31:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Your Name
Apple's "coolness" factor ... nope, not a chance. Buying these Apple
Earpods means any dweeb can hide their $20 Android phone in their
pocket and walk around pretending they actually bought an iPhone. ;-)
I'm curious if you actually *believe* a silly cellphone is a "status"
symbol.

Are you _really_ that shallow?

How about you get an *education* as your status symbol?
Or say something intelligent at the very least.
Lewis
2018-08-19 13:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
[Long group dissertation snipped] apple knows what the breakdown is.
They certainly do. At Target this afternoon I found two kinds of Apple
EarPods for sale. One with a Lightning connector and one with a STANDARD
connector. Apple ain't no fool...
Post by abcdef
my local stores carry STANDARD headphones in droves
most of which are not as good as the ones bundled in the box.
Ah, there's that "MOST" word again. Besides surveying millions of Apple
users about what headphones they use, you also came and surveyed all the
headphones that are available in my local stores too??
The vast majority of wired headphones are complete shit.
--
"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it." - Groucho
Marx
sms
2018-08-19 22:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
I would miss a headphone jack. However the wife has yet to complain
about her iPhone not having one. Guess it's a YMMV thing...
it has a digital headphone jack and includes headphones in the box
One size headphone fits all? No thanks. YMMV.
Post by nospam
as well as an adapter for legacy analog headphones.
Having a headphone dongle dangling? No thanks. YMMV.
Post by nospam
it also fully supports all bluetooth headsets and headphones.
Bluetooth? More cost, battery charge hassle, and bulk. No thanks. YMMV.
You can add a headphone jack to an iPhone 7, not sure about an iPhone 8.

See
It took him 17 weeks
to do it.
Savageduck
2018-08-20 00:16:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
I would miss a headphone jack. However the wife has yet to complain
about her iPhone not having one. Guess it's a YMMV thing...
it has a digital headphone jack and includes headphones in the box
One size headphone fits all? No thanks. YMMV.
Post by nospam
as well as an adapter for legacy analog headphones.
Having a headphone dongle dangling? No thanks. YMMV.
Post by nospam
it also fully supports all bluetooth headsets and headphones.
Bluetooth? More cost, battery charge hassle, and bulk. No thanks. YMMV.
You can add a headphone jack to an iPhone 7, not sure about an iPhone 8.
See http://youtu.be/utfbE3_uAMA It took him 17 weeks
to do it.
The question should be, “Why would you need to add a headphone jack to an
iPhone 8 when there are so many great Lightning, or BT options out there?”

The usual answer would be so that I can use high quality earphones/headphones
with said iP8. I have an iP8+ which was delivered with Apple Lightning
connector Earpods, and the Lightning to jack adaptor, and I have no problem
finding quality head/earphones which will work with it. Some of them are
pre-Lightning, and still work just fine.

I am not a fan of the wired Earpods so I have looked for alternatives.
Several years ago when I had an iPhone (iP4S, iP5, iP6S+) with a headphone
jack I bought a pair of wonderful Etymotic ER4 earphones, but they only
provide noise isolation not true noise cancellation. So for travel, and noise
cancellation while flying I bought a pair of Bose QC 35 headphones, and they
are great, but they still have the bulk of headphones. So when I got an iP6
which has both a standard headphone jack and a Lightning connector I looked
for alternatives, both Lightning connector, and BlueTooth. I was surprised to
find what was available from Beats, JBL, Phillips, B&O, and others, some with
adaptive noise cancellation some without.

My big discovery was the RAYZ from Pioneer. They use a Lightning connector,
they have adaptive noise cancellation thanks to the power of the iPhone A11
chip, and they also have a pass-through Lightning connector for charging
while still connected.Best of all they are affordable.

<https://www.pioneerrayz.com/earphones>

Then a few weeks ago I decided to buy a set of Apple Airpods, and for general
use with iOS devices they are hard to beat. ...but no noise cancellation, or
good isolation, so I still have a place for the Bose QC 35s, and the Pioneer
RAYZ.

While the Etymolic ER4s are getting to be 8 years old now, they still provide
quality sound, and they work just fine on the iP8+ with the Apple provided
adaptor.
--
Regards,
Savageduck
Savageduck
2018-08-20 00:42:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
You can add a headphone jack to an iPhone 7, not sure about an iPhone 8.
See http://youtu.be/utfbE3_uAMA It took him 17 weeks
to do it.
BTW: That was waste of time, and money given that he had the solution in hand
with the Lightning/headphone adapter to start with. An exercise in futility.
--
Regards,
Savageduck
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 02:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Savageduck
BTW: That was waste of time, and money given that he had the solution in hand
with the Lightning/headphone adapter to start with. An exercise in futility.
It's instructive though, to be another case where even the simplest of
things are far harder to do with Apple equipment, where the _only_ reason
for the lost functionality was to increase Apple profits (IMHO).

Just as Tim Cook was caught in two bold-face public lies last year, the
"courageous" lost functionality will, eventually, IMHO, be shown to be what
it was all along.
sms
2018-08-20 13:26:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Savageduck
Post by sms
You can add a headphone jack to an iPhone 7, not sure about an iPhone 8.
See http://youtu.be/utfbE3_uAMA It took him 17 weeks
to do it.
BTW: That was waste of time, and money given that he had the solution in hand
with the Lightning/headphone adapter to start with. An exercise in futility.
Many people want to charge their phone and use headphones at the same time.

While there are adapters for that, i.e.
<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074WDWVX1> it gets clunky to be carrying and
using all these extra bits.
nospam
2018-08-20 13:36:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
Many people want to charge their phone and use headphones at the same time.
not very many, since iphone batteries easily lasts a full day in
typical use, usually well into the second day, so there's little need
to do both. the iphone 8 and later have wireless charging, so even if
someone does want to do both, there's no conflict. all iphones have
bluetooth, so that's yet another option.

you are also ignoring that numerous android phones do not have an
analog headphone jack.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 14:27:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
you are also ignoring that numerous android phones do not have an
analog headphone jack.
You Apple Apologists *love* to blame Android for the lack of basic
functionality on iOS mobile devices.

In addition, you Apple Apologists always find the *worst* to compare with.

It's the *only* way you _can_ compare iOS with Android.

Any idiot, as you prove, can find a terrible comparison.

It takes intelligence, for example, to get good price-to-performance.

My Android phone, for example, has the "courageous" basic functionality of
a headphone jack, and it costs five times *less* than a far less functional
equivalent hardware iPhone.
nospam
2018-08-20 14:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen Holder
My Android phone, for example, has the "courageous" basic functionality of
a headphone jack, and it costs five times *less* than a far less functional
equivalent hardware iPhone.
meanwhile, the google pixel, what google's vision of what an android
phone should be, does *not* have an analog headphone jack.

nor does the essential phone from andy rubin, who created android
itself, along with many other android phones from motorola, htc, le
eco, and others.

they all, however, have a modern digital headphone jack, one which is
more reliable and more capable.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 15:42:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
meanwhile, the google pixel, what google's vision of what an android
phone should be, does *not* have an analog headphone jack.
You said yourself, many times, so don't deny it, that Google can afford to
put phones out there that they don't plan to directly make money on (that
was your excuse, in the past, why Nexus phones had such great
price-to-performance compared with the far less functional iPhones.

Now we find that Google themselves, is marketing the $160 Google Pixel Buds
for that Pixel phone you so very much seem to love to compare with Apple.
<https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2017/10/04/hello-google-pixel-buds-goodbye-headphone-jack/731438001/>
Post by nospam
nor does the essential phone from andy rubin, who created android
itself, along with many other android phones from motorola, htc, le
eco, and others.
All I'm saying is that the "courageous" marketing spin of Apple wasn't due
to anything other than sheer profit motive.

I'm never one to disparage Apple's profits - and you know that - since I
think they're one of the best MARKETED companies on this planet - and they
deserve their money.

Read what they said about Google and the lack of the headphone jack here:
"Smell that? It's the stench of irony. Last year on Oct. 4, it was
Google who made fun of Apple for ditching the popular port."
<https://www.cnet.com/news/pixel-2-xl-no-headphone-jack/>

The point is that both Google and Apple are ditching the basic
functionality for one reason and one reason only, the "courageous" decision
to milk an extra few hundred dollars out of each customer! (Bear in mind,
the devices get broken, batteries wear out, they get lost, etc.)
Post by nospam
they all, however, have a modern digital headphone jack, one which is
more reliable and more capable.
I have given, as gifts, headphone-less iPhones to people who wanted
iPhones, where they complain about the lack of the basic functionality of
the missing headphone jack.

They love their iPhones. They really do.
They also hate that their iPhone doesn't have the basic functionality of a
headphone jack.

There is one reason and one reason only for the "courageous" decision to
eliminate basic functionality - for both Google & Apple - and it's sheer
profit motive. There was no consideration in the least for the loyal
customer, IMHO.

You Apple Apologists always find the *worst* examples to compare with.
And then you blame Android for all the faults of the iPhone.
nospam
2018-08-20 17:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arlen Holder
Post by nospam
meanwhile, the google pixel, what google's vision of what an android
phone should be, does *not* have an analog headphone jack.
You said yourself, many times, so don't deny it, that Google can afford to
put phones out there that they don't plan to directly make money on (that
was your excuse, in the past, why Nexus phones had such great
price-to-performance compared with the far less functional iPhones.
nexus phones are no longer made and pixel phones cost about the same as
similar iphones.
Post by Arlen Holder
Now we find that Google themselves, is marketing the $160 Google Pixel Buds
for that Pixel phone you so very much seem to love to compare with Apple.
<https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2017/10/04/hello-google-pixel-buds-goodby
e-headphone-jack/731438001/>
yep. it ain't just apple who realizes that the future is wireless.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 18:43:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
yep. it ain't just apple who realizes that the future is wireless.
Every statement you make proves to the world that you have the mindset of a
child.

That Google & Apple are highly MARKETED is something that is far too
complex for your child's mind to comprehend.
abcdef
2018-08-20 16:53:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
meanwhile, the google pixel, what google's vision of what an android
phone should be, does *not* have an analog headphone jack.
What makes Google God? Who gives a damn about their vision? I've had
Google products and they ain't all that great. I DID miss the SD card on
my Nexus 7. And the Pixelbook? Talk about being overpriced...
Fortunately Google ain't God and the competition can do a better job at
a better price.

Even the grandkids el-cheapo Digiland (US$39) tablet has both a
headphone jack and SD capability. (Especially thank God for the peace
and quiet provided by those headphones...)
Post by nospam
nor does the essential phone from andy rubin, who created android
itself,
Why would anybody give a rats ass about what somebody who created
Android thinks a modern phone should be? Do you worship Bill Gates too??
Buy any overpriced Microsoft stuff recently?
Post by nospam
along with many other android phones from motorola, htc, le eco, and
others.
Both my Motorola and HTC phones have/had headphone holes.
Post by nospam
they all, however, have a modern digital headphone jack, one which
is more reliable and more capable.
Can I get a digital headphone set for the grandkids for 5 bucks?
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 17:14:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
What makes Google God?
The Apple Apologists make Google God whenever they have no logical
argument, and when Google MARKETING does the same thing as does Apple
MARKETING!
Post by abcdef
Who gives a damn about their vision?
If people buy into the Google MARKETING bullshit or the Apple MARKETING
bullshit - then it will be important.

But if people make intelligent choices, and shun the Google MARKETING
bullshit, then Google's phones are meaningless to most of us since we can
find a better deal elsewhere.
Post by abcdef
I've had
Google products and they ain't all that great. I DID miss the SD card on
my Nexus 7. And the Pixelbook? Talk about being overpriced...
Yup. I've bought as gift phones the Moto-G from Google and the Nexus 5 from
Google, but I swore them off forever. They're as restrictive as Apple
products. Who wants that? Nobody.

I bought them because they were inexpensive compared to the competition,
but, in the end, the restrictions of no SD card, non-removable battery were
too much, even for me.

The only way I'd take a phone sans an SD card slot or removable battery is
if someone gives it to me for free.
Post by abcdef
Fortunately Google ain't God and the competition can do a better job at
a better price.
Yup. A few months ago I bought at Costco a handful of $130 8-core LG Stylo
3 Plus phones for T-Mobile networks which have a removable battery, 2TB sd
card slot, FM radio, and headphone jack.

Who needs the Orwellian restrictions of Google or Apple MARKETING when you
can find deals like that around.
Post by abcdef
Even the grandkids el-cheapo Digiland (US$39) tablet has both a
headphone jack and SD capability. (Especially thank God for the peace
and quiet provided by those headphones...)
A headphone jack is basic functionality.
Only the Apple Apologists disagree with that logical statement.
Post by abcdef
Why would anybody give a rats ass about what somebody who created
Android thinks a modern phone should be? Do you worship Bill Gates too??
Buy any overpriced Microsoft stuff recently?
What the Apple Apologists do is blame Android for Apple's faults.
They do it constantly.
It's part of their psyche to blame Android for all of Apple's decisions!
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/18ARDsEOPzM>
Post by abcdef
Both my Motorola and HTC phones have/had headphone holes.
I bought a handful of the $130 LG Stylo 3 Plus phones, where *all* have
standard common headphone jack functionality.

Sure, Apple & Google won't be able to upsell $160 contraptions - where -
I'm ok with that logic.
Post by abcdef
Can I get a digital headphone set for the grandkids for 5 bucks?
The ill-formed logic of the Apple Apologist *never* takes into account
logical adult-made price performance considerations such as that one! :)

PS: My local library has a basket full of the earbuds so that anyone in the
library can just plug in and listen without bothering everyone else.
nospam
2018-08-20 17:33:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
they all, however, have a modern digital headphone jack, one which
is more reliable and more capable.
Can I get a digital headphone set for the grandkids for 5 bucks?
you sure can, and with $2 left over:
<https://www.amazon.com/Beautyonline-Headphones-Waterproof-Sweatproof-Ha
nds-free/dp/B07DB1PL8P/>

it's much better to teach them responsibility and not mistreat or lose
the headphones that came with the phone.
abcdef
2018-08-20 19:02:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by abcdef
Can I get a digital headphone set for the grandkids for 5 bucks?
<https://www.amazon.com/Beautyonline-Headphones-Waterproof-Sweatproof-Ha
nds-free/dp/B07DB1PL8P/>
Good find but I think I'd rather get this 61 cent wired pair. Not only
do I save a buck and a half but they play forever without the hassle of
battery charging. AND they're white so people will think I have those
cool expensive Apple ones... ;)

https://www.nicepricefavors.com/p-6788.htm?utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=ShoppingSearch&utm_nooverride=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIoMPCsaP83AIViFx-Ch3OLw51EAQYAyABEgIfgPD_BwE
Post by nospam
it's much better to teach them responsibility and not mistreat or
lose the headphones that came with the phone.
My oldest grandkid is age 32 so too too late for her. But for the other
34 (plus 3 in the ovens) I'll see what I can do.
Savageduck
2018-08-20 19:27:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
Post by abcdef
Can I get a digital headphone set for the grandkids for 5 bucks?
<https://www.amazon.com/Beautyonline-Headphones-Waterproof-Sweatproof-Ha
nds-free/dp/B07DB1PL8P/>
Good find but I think I'd rather get this 61 cent wired pair. Not only
do I save a buck and a half but they play forever without the hassle of
battery charging. AND they're white so people will think I have those
cool expensive Apple ones... ;)
https://www.nicepricefavors.com/p-6788.htm?utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=cpc&u
tm_campaign=ShoppingSearch&utm_nooverride=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIoMPCsaP83AIViFx-
Ch3OLw51EAQYAyABEgIfgPD_BwE
Post by nospam
it's much better to teach them responsibility and not mistreat or
lose the headphones that came with the phone.
My oldest grandkid is age 32 so too too late for her. But for the other
34 (plus 3 in the ovens) I'll see what I can do.
Oh Hell! Just step up and buy them a pair of Etymotic ER4. I have had a pair
for about 9 years, and they work just fine with my iPhone 8+ using the Apple
supplied Lightning to analog headphone adaptor. Sorry they are only available
in black.

<https://www.etymotic.com/consumer/earphones/er4-new.html>
--
Regards,
Savageduck
abcdef
2018-08-20 16:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by sms
Many people want to charge their phone and use headphones at the same time.
not very many, since iphone batteries easily lasts a full day in
typical use, usually well into the second day, so there's little
need to do both.
As a serious headphone user I would agree. Local music hardly makes a
dent in MY phone battery (YMMV). Streaming takes a little more. I've
fallen asleep in my chair and even streaming overnight the battery only
dropped around 30%. (What...you've never fallen asleep overnight in your
chair???)
Savageduck
2018-08-20 14:14:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
Post by Savageduck
Post by sms
You can add a headphone jack to an iPhone 7, not sure about an iPhone 8.
See http://youtu.be/utfbE3_uAMA It took him 17 weeks
to do it.
BTW: That was waste of time, and money given that he had the solution in
hand with the Lightning/headphone adapter to start with. An exercise in futility.
Many people want to charge their phone and use headphones at the same time.
While there are adapters for that, i.e.
<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074WDWVX1> it gets clunky to be carrying and
using all these extra bits.
...and that was one reason I bought both, the Pioneer RAYZ which has an
inline Lightning input for charging while using the earphones, and a pair of
Apple Airpods which are recharged in their container.

<https://www.pioneerrayz.com/earphones>

<https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMEF2AM/A/airpods>

...and it is tough to think of a reason to wear earphones for 10+ straight
hours to listen to anything.
--
Regards,
Savageduck
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 14:27:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Savageduck
...and it is tough to think of a reason to wear earphones for 10+ straight
hours to listen to anything.
You Apple Apologists find the _strangest_ reasons for everything.

*Your idiotic claim, Savageduck, simply proves you speak of child's logic.*

You claim that people are wearing earphones for "ten plus straight hours",
where, your utterly ridiculous claims negate going to the bathroom, eating,
sleeping, etc.

The _only_ way you Apple Apologists can make _any_ claim, is to make the
absolute *worst* comparisons any idiot human can make.

And you, Savageduck, have proven yourself to be an idiot time and again.

Ten plus straight hours, for heaven's sake.
You're an utter moron Savageduck.

You can't come up with a rationale better than that?

*Everything you say, Savageduck, simply proves you're an utter idiot.*
Savageduck
2018-08-20 14:36:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Savageduck
Post by sms
Post by Savageduck
Post by sms
You can add a headphone jack to an iPhone 7, not sure about an iPhone 8.
See http://youtu.be/utfbE3_uAMA It took him 17 weeks
to do it.
BTW: That was waste of time, and money given that he had the solution in
hand with the Lightning/headphone adapter to start with. An exercise in futility.
Many people want to charge their phone and use headphones at the same time.
While there are adapters for that, i.e.
<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074WDWVX1> it gets clunky to be carrying and
using all these extra bits.
...and that was one reason I bought both, the Pioneer RAYZ which has an
inline Lightning input for charging while using the earphones, and a pair of
Apple Airpods which are recharged in their container.
<https://www.pioneerrayz.com/earphones>
<https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMEF2AM/A/airpods>
...and it is tough to think of a reason to wear earphones for 10+ straight
hours to listen to anything.
BTW: the RAYZ version with the inline Lightning-USB charging connector does
cost a bit more at $129.95.

<Loading Image...>
--
Regards,
Savageduck
nospam
2018-08-20 14:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Savageduck
...and it is tough to think of a reason to wear earphones for 10+ straight
hours to listen to anything.
no shit.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 15:42:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Savageduck
...and it is tough to think of a reason to wear earphones for 10+ straight
hours to listen to anything.
no shit.
If you have to make an argument based on forcing a person to wear
headphones for *ten plus straight hours*, for heaven's sake, then you're
both simply proving you have no logical argument whatsoever.

That's a key trait you Apple Apologists, npspam & Savageduck consistently
display.

*You'll fabricate any justification of Apple's Orwellian use model.*
Savageduck
2018-08-20 18:08:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Savageduck
...and it is tough to think of a reason to wear earphones for 10+ straight
hours to listen to anything.
no shit.
;-)
--
Regards,
Savageduck
sms
2018-08-20 15:37:36 UTC
Permalink
On 8/20/2018 7:14 AM, Savageduck wrote:

<snip>
Post by Savageduck
...and that was one reason I bought both, the Pioneer RAYZ which has an
inline Lightning input for charging while using the earphones, and a pair of
Apple Airpods which are recharged in their container.
<https://www.pioneerrayz.com/earphones>
<https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMEF2AM/A/airpods>
...and it is tough to think of a reason to wear earphones for 10+ straight
hours to listen to anything.
It's not just earphones. It's also connection to your vehicle's
non-Bluetooth capable sound system while also using the phone for
navigation, in which case you would NOT get 10 hours. Though in that
case, keeping the $35 Lightning/Headphone splitter in your car is not a
big deal.

Trying to rationalize this by explaining how you worked around it is
great for you, but doesn't apply to everyone. While it's great that you
were willing to spend $159 on Airpods, most people won't do this. I'm
already seeing Nextdoor posts asking if anyone has found an Airpod that
the user lost while out walking or running.

Personally I don't like the philosophy of eliminating I/O ports and then
having to buy, and carry, additional products to restore that lost
functionality. I understand the reasons for the decontenting, it saves
manufacturing cost, it decreases warranty repair cost, it encourages the
sale of Airpods, it makes it easier to waterproof the phone, and it
generates licensing revenue. But I still don't like the side-effects of
the decontenting.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 16:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
Trying to rationalize this by explaining how you worked around it is
great for you, but doesn't apply to everyone. While it's great that you
were willing to spend $159 on Airpods, most people won't do this. I'm
already seeing Nextdoor posts asking if anyone has found an Airpod that
the user lost while out walking or running.
Exactly.

Both Google and Apple are making the MARKETING decision that charging
people $160 for each set of Airpods is a good BUSINESS decision.

They remove basic functionality so that the consumer MUST purchase
*something*, where plenty of consumers will lose, destroy, break, etc.,
their original pods - and the batteries won't last forever either.

Each time someone has to replace their Airpods, that's another $160 (gross)
into the coiffers.

The only "courageous" decision here is that it's a courageous way to make a
profit off of the loyal consumer ... where I don't fault Apple or Google
for raping their customer.

But for the Apple Apologists like nospam & Savageduck to try to justify
this sheer profit motive on the basis of forcing a user to wear headphones
for *ten plus straight hours* is bordering on the ridiculous.

Why can't nospam and Savageduck simply act like normal adults and simply
admit they have no logical argument that can justify the Orwellian lost
functionality on benefit to the consumer?
nospam
2018-08-20 17:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
Post by Savageduck
...and it is tough to think of a reason to wear earphones for 10+ straight
hours to listen to anything.
It's not just earphones. It's also connection to your vehicle's
non-Bluetooth capable sound system while also using the phone for
navigation, in which case you would NOT get 10 hours. Though in that
case, keeping the $35 Lightning/Headphone splitter in your car is not a
big deal.
most cars these days has bluetooth, but if not, get a dock for the car
that combines both. it will charge and connect to the vehicle's sound
system. no problem at all.
Post by sms
Trying to rationalize this by explaining how you worked around it is
great for you, but doesn't apply to everyone. While it's great that you
were willing to spend $159 on Airpods, most people won't do this. I'm
already seeing Nextdoor posts asking if anyone has found an Airpod that
the user lost while out walking or running.
out of the millions of airpods sold, a couple of people having lost
them is completely meaningless.

and apple isn't the only company making wireless headphones either.
Post by sms
Personally I don't like the philosophy of eliminating I/O ports and then
having to buy, and carry, additional products to restore that lost
functionality.
nothing is lost and there is no need to buy anything at all.

headphones come in the box which plug into the *digital* headphone
jack.

also in the box is an adapter to use any headphones you may already own.

it's a complete non-issue.
Post by sms
I understand the reasons for the decontenting, it saves
manufacturing cost, it decreases warranty repair cost, it encourages the
sale of Airpods, it makes it easier to waterproof the phone, and it
generates licensing revenue. But I still don't like the side-effects of
the decontenting.
the savings for not including one part is pennies, plus airpod sales
and licensing revenue do not apply to android phone makers, who are
*also* removing the old and obsolete analog headphone jack.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 18:45:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
the savings for not including one part is pennies, plus airpod sales
and licensing revenue do not apply to android phone makers, who are
*also* removing the old and obsolete analog headphone jack.
Notice how you *consistently blame Android* for Apple's failure to care
about the customer's needs.
Arlen Holder
2018-08-20 14:27:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
Many people want to charge their phone and use headphones at the same time.
While there are adapters for that, i.e.
<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074WDWVX1> it gets clunky to be carrying and
using all these extra bits.
There is *nothing* good about the iPhone lack of basic functionality
(except to Apple's profit motives), which, IMHO, is why Apple had to "spin"
the lost functionality as a "courageous" lack of basic functionality.
Your Name
2018-08-20 02:55:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by sms
Post by abcdef
Post by nospam
I would miss a headphone jack. However the wife has yet to complain
about her iPhone not having one. Guess it's a YMMV thing...
it has a digital headphone jack and includes headphones in the box
One size headphone fits all? No thanks. YMMV.
Post by nospam
as well as an adapter for legacy analog headphones.
Having a headphone dongle dangling? No thanks. YMMV.
Post by nospam
it also fully supports all bluetooth headsets and headphones.
Bluetooth? More cost, battery charge hassle, and bulk. No thanks. YMMV.
You can add a headphone jack to an iPhone 7, not sure about an iPhone 8.
See http://youtu.be/utfbE3_uAMA It took him 17 weeks
to do it.
You can much more easily add a heaphone jack to any iPhone without one
using any of the various adpators (dangly and non-dangly) and there are
iPhone cases that include a headphone jack - most simply use Bluetooth
to actually connnect the headphone jack to the iPhone, but this one
doesn't seem to:
<https://www.amazon.com/Encased-iPhone-Battery-3-5mm-Headphone/dp/B076VXGHFH/>
or the cheaper Asian knock-off version:
<https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Headphone-Adapter-External-Protective/dp/B075DBWS6X/>


Both included extra battery power as well.
Ant
2018-08-17 17:01:55 UTC
Permalink
So like old Palm and Newton devices?
Post by sms
Is Apple acknowledging that many users want an active stylus on their
phones?
https://www.macrumors.com/2018/08/16/2018-iphone-x-apple-pencil-support/
Probably. Since Apple already added active stylus support to the iPad
Pro, and Samsung has it on the Galaxy Note series, it is only reasonable
that the iPhone gain this same functionality. Hopefully with a smaller
stylus than the one used with the iPad Pro! I really like my ???Apple
Pencil??? on the iPad Pro, though mouse support, like on the Microsoft
Surface Pro and on Android tablets, would be really nice when using the
iPad as a computer with the keyboard.
Now what really would be awesome is if Apple also copied Microsoft???s
???Windows Ink??? and active stylus that is available on an increasing
number of laptops. There are already software applications that require
the use of Windows Ink. Had to buy my son one those laptops because one
of the applications he uses in college will only work with a Windows 10
machine that supports Windows Ink.
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