Google Android "DSID" cookie, Android ID & Android System SafetyCore

[Marion]

*How Google tracks Android device users before they've even opened an app*
<https://www.theregister.com/2025/03/04/google_android/>

"Leith said he wasn't able to ascertain the purpose of the identifier
but his paper notes a code comment, presumably made by a Google dev,
acknowledging that this identifier is considered personally identifiable
information (PII), likely bringing it into the scope of European privacy
law GDPR - still mostly intact in British law as UK GDPR."

Not the best of sources, and it doesn't even mention the most important
factor, which is nobody who cares about privacy sets up a Google Account
on the phone (they can have a google account - just not in the settings).

"Doug Leith, professor and chair of computer systems at Trinity College
Dublin, who carried out the research..."

"The DSID cookie is "almost certainly" the primary method Google
uses to link analytics and advertising events, such as ad clicks,
to individual users, Leith writes in his paper"
� <https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs/cookies_identifiers_and_other_data.pdf>

Leith specifically mentions these apps, one of which nobody ever needs:
1. Google Play Services
2. Google Play store

Note the existence of a 'DSID' cookie, which Google explains in its
documentation is used to identify a "signed in user on non-Google websites
so that the user's preference for personalized advertising is respected
accordingly. The 'DSID' cookie lasts for two weeks."

Note that this DSID cookie apparently only exist for those who sign into a
Google Account (which is usually as part of the Android startup process).

Likewise, "Another tracker which cannot be removed once created is the
Google Android ID, a device identifier that's linked to a user's Google
account and created after the first connection made to the device by Google
Play Services. It continues to send data about the device back to Google
even after the user logs out of their Google account and the only way to
remove it, and its data, is to factory-reset the device."

Notice none of this (likely) happens if you're smart enough to simply not
list a Google Account in the Android account settings, which, is so trivial
not to do, that it needs no explanation. The phone works better without it.

Note that the article concludes with "The findings come amid something of a
recent uproar about another process called Android System SafetyCore...
which scans a user's sent and received images.. for explicit images and
displays content warnings before the user views them.
<https://support.google.com/product-documentation/answer/16001929>

[Jeff Layman]

Post by Marion
*How Google tracks Android device users before they've even opened an app*
<https://www.theregister.com/2025/03/04/google_android/>
"Leith said he wasn't able to ascertain the purpose of the identifier
but his paper notes a code comment, presumably made by a Google dev,
acknowledging that this identifier is considered personally identifiable
information (PII), likely bringing it into the scope of European privacy
law GDPR - still mostly intact in British law as UK GDPR."
Not the best of sources, and it doesn't even mention the most important
factor, which is nobody who cares about privacy sets up a Google Account
on the phone (they can have a google account - just not in the settings).
"Doug Leith, professor and chair of computer systems at Trinity College
Dublin, who carried out the research..."
"The DSID cookie is "almost certainly" the primary method Google
uses to link analytics and advertising events, such as ad clicks,
to individual users, Leith writes in his paper"
��� <https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs/cookies_identifiers_and_other_data.pdf>
1. Google Play Services
2. Google Play store
Note the existence of a 'DSID' cookie, which Google explains in its
documentation is used to identify a "signed in user on non-Google websites
so that the user's preference for personalized advertising is respected
accordingly. The 'DSID' cookie lasts for two weeks."
Note that this DSID cookie apparently only exist for those who sign into a
Google Account (which is usually as part of the Android startup process).
Likewise, "Another tracker which cannot be removed once created is the
Google Android ID, a device identifier that's linked to a user's Google
account and created after the first connection made to the device by Google
Play Services. It continues to send data about the device back to Google
even after the user logs out of their Google account and the only way to
remove it, and its data, is to factory-reset the device."
Notice none of this (likely) happens if you're smart enough to simply not
list a Google Account in the Android account settings, which, is so trivial
not to do, that it needs no explanation. The phone works better without it.
Note that the article concludes with "The findings come amid something of a
recent uproar about another process called Android System SafetyCore...
which scans a user's sent and received images.. for explicit images and
displays content warnings before the user views them.
<https://support.google.com/product-documentation/answer/16001929>

Hardly surprising given Google's history! It would be interesting to
know if Graphene, Lineage, Calyx, or any of the other android-based OSs
suffer from these cookies too.

Unfortunately, most people have a Google account and automatically log
on when they get a new phone (if for no other reason than to transfer
all their old phone info to the new one via a Google backup).

If you want to be free from Google, probably the way to go is Sailfish,
Pure, or Pine.

[Theo]

Post by Jeff Layman
Hardly surprising given Google's history! It would be interesting to
know if Graphene, Lineage, Calyx, or any of the other android-based OSs
suffer from these cookies too.

There's a thread on the GrapheneOS forum about this:
https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/20495-googles-dsid-cookie

If I understand it correctly:

On a stock install without Sandboxed Google Play installed: no
SGP installed but not logged into a Google account: no
Apps that don't use SGP: no
Apps that use GOS' hardened Webview without logging into Google's website:
no (I think)

so it's only when the profile is logged into a Google account that it's
relevant. Since GOS allows you to have multiple profiles (similar to how
multiple user accounts work on desktops) you can always create a separate
profile where you're logged into a Google account and install awkward apps
in there. When you're finished with them for today, power button and 'end
session' (which switches back to another profile) and the apps are
completely stopped until you switch to that profile again.

The SafetyCore app is not installed as part of installing Sandboxed Google
Play, but you can install it yourself if you want to.

The point of SGP is that it runs Google Play Services as a regular app,
without any privileged access. So GPS can't do sneaky things to the system
behind your back as it can on a regular Android OS.

Theo

[Marion]

Post by Theo
https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/20495-googles-dsid-cookie

Thanks for that link in the graphene group on the DSID cookie.

The DSID cookie is apparently used by Google to identify a user who is
signed into Google (& whether they've agreed to ad personalization) when
they're visiting non-Google sites (so Google can provide targeted ads).

Nobody seems to know what the letters mean, but it could be that it means
DSID === DataSet Identifier
Until/unless someone finds a better description, that's what I'll assume.

I'd like to see if I can install GrapheneOS but my bootloader version has
never been unlocked according to the searches that I've been able to run.
Samsung Galaxy A32-6U Baseband A326USQSHDXL1 (the "H" is the key character
as nothing after 5 is rootable as far as I can find on the net).

It's build number TP1A.220624.014.A326USQSHDXL1 where
"TP1A" indicates it's based on Android 11 or later.
"220624" indicates the build date of June 24th 2022.
"A326U" identifies the device model.
"SQSHDXL1" is the baseband version.
where the fifth-character-from-the-right is the critical character.

So the best I can do, to avoid the DSID cookie implications, is NOT set up
a Google Account in the Android settings. Luckily that's trivial.

Just hit the "skip" button when it asks you to set up Android with it.
I don't know why everyone doesn't do that - but it's what I do.

I wish I could root it though... sigh.
People on the Pixel are lucky because they can root it.

[Jeff Layman]

Post by Marion

Post by Theo
https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/20495-googles-dsid-cookie

Thanks for that link in the graphene group on the DSID cookie.
The DSID cookie is apparently used by Google to identify a user who is
signed into Google (& whether they've agreed to ad personalization) when
they're visiting non-Google sites (so Google can provide targeted ads).
Nobody seems to know what the letters mean, but it could be that it means
DSID === DataSet Identifier
Until/unless someone finds a better description, that's what I'll assume.

I think that's right:
<https://help.ivanti.com/ps/help/en_US/nSA/22.x/msp/api/api-dsid.htm>

Post by Marion
I'd like to see if I can install GrapheneOS but my bootloader version has
never been unlocked according to the searches that I've been able to run.
Samsung Galaxy A32-6U Baseband A326USQSHDXL1 (the "H" is the key character
as nothing after 5 is rootable as far as I can find on the net).

As far as I can tell not only GrapheneOS, but also LineageOS and CalyxOS
cannot be installed on a Samsung A32.
<https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/>
<https://calyxos.org/docs/guide/device-support/>

Post by Marion
People on the Pixel are lucky because they can root it.

Yes, but it's still a Google device. Are there any Google backdoors?
Troubling Pixel backdoors have been discovered:
<https://www.wired.com/story/google-android-pixel-showcase-vulnerability/>

"It raises questions about why third-party software that runs with such
high privileges so deep in the operating system was not tested more
deeply. It seems to me that Google has been pushing bloatware to Pixel
devices around the world.”

“A well-resourced adversary like a nation state could exploit this—it
has the potential to be a backdoor into basically any Pixel in the world.”

"Stuckey says that the discovery and what he describes as Google's slow,
opaque response has prompted Palantir to phase out not just Pixel
phones, but all Android devices across the company."

Wow! Phasing out *all Android devices*!

[David Wade]

Post by Marion

Post by Theo
https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/20495-googles-dsid-cookie

Thanks for that link in the graphene group on the DSID cookie.
The DSID cookie is apparently used by Google to identify a user who is
signed into Google (& whether they've agreed to ad personalization) when
they're visiting non-Google sites (so Google can provide targeted ads).

...

Post by Marion
So the best I can do, to avoid the DSID cookie implications, is NOT set up
a Google Account in the Android settings. Luckily that's trivial.
Just hit the "skip" button when it asks you to set up Android with it.
I don't know why everyone doesn't do that - but it's what I do.

Probably because when we have a new phone we want the backup with the
contacts and apps from our previous phone.....

Post by Marion
I wish I could root it though... sigh.
People on the Pixel are lucky because they can root it.

Dave

[Marion]

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion
Just hit the "skip" button when it asks you to set up Android with it.
I don't know why everyone doesn't do that - but it's what I do.

Probably because when we have a new phone we want the backup with the
contacts and apps from our previous phone.....

Thanks for that explanation of why people set up a Google Account on their
phone, one reason being that contacts are automatically backed up.

I can completely understand that concept, which is that contacts can be
backed up, as certainly, a Google Account, by default, will do that feat.

But so can just about any program that claims to "back up contacts" right?
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.simpler.backup>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.contacts.backup.sim.phone.number.transfer.restore>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.dktlabs.contacts>

Note: I don't use those apps (some of which have their own cloud account)
as I simply export/import (i.e., backup/restore) my contacts sqlite
database directly to/from the PC as I don't have a Google Account set up on
my phone (although I have plenty of "Google Accounts" for the email).

To transfer my entire homescreen, from one phone to the other, including
all the folders, shortcuts and widgets, I simply use an intelligent
launcher (where I use the last known good version of Nova but others work).
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.teslacoilsw.launcher>

With these intelligent launchers, you simply save the entire homescreen to
a file on your PC and then you load that file on the new phone & voila!

All your app icons are on the new phone EXACTLY where they were on the old!
Of course, by default, that installs the *latest* version of all those apps
(so what I do to keep my old versions, is slide them over from the PC).
<Loading Image...> Drag APK from Windows

I manage my iPads & Android devices & data by sliding back and forth
between the device and the PC using the PC mouse and keyboard.
<Loading Image...> iOS & Android PC mirroring
But I get it that people who don't have a PC use Google defaults instead.

Thanks for helping me understand why people set up a Google Account on the
phone, where the loss in privacy from that one act, unfortunately, is huge.

[David Wade]

Post by Marion

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion
Just hit the "skip" button when it asks you to set up Android with it.
I don't know why everyone doesn't do that - but it's what I do.

Probably because when we have a new phone we want the backup with the
contacts and apps from our previous phone.....

Thanks for that explanation of why people set up a Google Account on their
phone, one reason being that contacts are automatically backed up.
I can completely understand that concept, which is that contacts can be
backed up, as certainly, a Google Account, by default, will do that feat.
But so can just about any program that claims to "back up contacts" right?
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.simpler.backup>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?
id=com.contacts.backup.sim.phone.number.transfer.restore>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.dktlabs.contacts>
Note: I don't use those apps (some of which have their own cloud account)
as I simply export/import (i.e., backup/restore) my contacts sqlite
database directly to/from the PC as I don't have a Google Account set up on
my phone (although I have plenty of "Google Accounts" for the email).

Post by David Wade
To transfer my entire homescreen, from one phone to the other, including

all the folders, shortcuts and widgets, I simply use an intelligent
launcher (where I use the last known good version of Nova but others work).
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.teslacoilsw.launcher>
With these intelligent launchers, you simply save the entire homescreen to
a file on your PC and then you load that file on the new phone & voila!
All your app icons are on the new phone EXACTLY where they were on the old!
Of course, by default, that installs the *latest* version of all those
apps (so what I do to keep my old versions, is slide them over from the
PC).
<https://i.postimg.cc/wvsbcNBz/scrcpy05.jpg> Drag APK from Windows
I manage my iPads & Android devices & data by sliding back and forth
between the device and the PC using the PC mouse and keyboard.
<https://i.postimg.cc/TYvqdxCT/vysor35.jpg> iOS & Android PC mirroring
But I get it that people who don't have a PC use Google defaults instead.
Thanks for helping me understand why people set up a Google Account on the
phone, where the loss in privacy from that one act, unfortunately, is huge.

Is it really that huge? What on earth is google going to do with my
personal info? Lets take my contacts. Because everyone else does not
hide their contacts from google, pretty sure google can work out who my
contacts are by cross tabulating info from every one else.

Take my location, well my car tracks that any way. Usually I am with one
of my contacts, I bet their phone allows tracking. So again google can
figure out where I am without access to my GPS...

.. I think the real reason people just sign into a google account is
because they don't see a need to maintain privacy. They have paid for
functionality, and they want it all too work without having to research
other options, which are likely to be less secure than google...

Dave

[Marion]

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion
Thanks for helping me understand why people set up a Google Account on the
phone, where the loss in privacy from that one act, unfortunately, is huge.

Is it really that huge?

You're making a keen observation, & I don't necessarily disagree with you.

However... in the *context* of this thread, it's huge in that the DSID
cookie is active as soon as the user logs into their Google Account.

My beef is people complaining that they "can't" have privacy when they
really mean they don't bother to do anything about having privacy.

Post by David Wade
What on earth is google going to do with my personal info?

Again, you bring up an astute point about what's the real threat here.

Unfortunately, the answer to that question could fill a book even if we
only look at lawsuits which Google lost, so I won't even try to answer.

But I get your point that you're not worried about Google getting your
data, and let's be clear, I have plenty of Google Accounts myself.

I even have Google Voice (but I use it only on the iPad for privacy
reasons), so I get your point that Google can have "some" of your data.

I weigh the threat against the benefit, which, for example, is why I won't
ever use Google Voice on Android but I'm happy to use Google Voice on iOS.

Post by David Wade
Lets take my contacts. Because everyone else does not
hide their contacts from google, pretty sure google can work out who my
contacts are by cross tabulating info from every one else.

I'm always in amazement at how many apps want access to our contacts.

I get it that it's a phone, and phones contact people, and nobody remembers
everyone by their phone number, so we all maintain a contacts database.

Where I take umbrage is everyone who has "my contact information" is
uploading it to the whole world without asking my permission to do that.

Alas, those same people are uploading my Wi-Fi unique BSSID & GPS location
(although I hide my broadcast & I add "_nomap" to the end of the SSID & I
set my phone to not seek out my hidden SSID for automatic connection, and I
have the MAC on every connection randomized etc., so I do my part for
privacy - but the vast majority of people wouldn't even understand a single
clause in that sentence above - because they know nothing about privacy.

All I can do is try to keep as little of that information available to them
since the vast majority of people do EXACTLY what marketing tells them to.

My main beef is people claim they "can't" have privacy from Google.
And yet, they can.

They just have to stop doing EXACTLY what marketing people tell them to do.
They need to think.

Post by David Wade
Take my location, well my car tracks that any way. Usually I am with one
of my contacts, I bet their phone allows tracking. So again google can
figure out where I am without access to my GPS...

I again agree with you that even if YOU don't allow Google to track you,
all the people around you are so incredibly stupid, that THEY are letting
Google track you (see my example above of the Wi-Fi access point data).

I don't disagree that the vast majority of people are so unfathomably
stupid, that they are really the direct threat to your privacy - not Google
directly.

As an example, if you don't hide your SSID broadcast, then those stupid
people are sending Google your unique BSSID & GPS location every time they
drive by your house. You can't fix stupid people. All you can do is ensure
that the information they get is of no use to Google & that takes work.

1. Set your SSID to a unique name (for butterfly hash obfuscation)
2. Set your SSID to end with "_nomap" in case it gets uploaded
3. Set your SSID to be "hidden" (as in not automatically broadcast)
4. Randomize the MAC for every access point (which is now the default)
5. Randomize your MAC upon every connection (which is NOT the default)
6. Set your phone to NOT automatically reconnect (again, not the default)
etc.

Since stupid people outnumber you a million to one, the onus is on you to
prevent your unique information from being uploaded to the google servers.

Post by David Wade
.. I think the real reason people just sign into a google account is
because they don't see a need to maintain privacy. They have paid for
functionality, and they want it all too work without having to research
other options, which are likely to be less secure than google...

Here's where I agree and disagree with you.
a. I agree that signing into Google is the *easy* way to get functionality
b. But I disagree that it's the more secure way of doing things

For every Google app, there's a FOSS privacy-aware replacement, which is
*more secure*, so I must take umbrage at your claim that it's less secure.

But I do agree with you that the easy way out is to just log into a Google
Account; however, I wonder if people realize their phone actually works
better without it?

[David Wade]

Post by Marion

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion
Thanks for helping me understand why people set up a Google Account on the
phone, where the loss in privacy from that one act, unfortunately, is huge.

Is it really that huge?

You're making a keen observation, & I don't necessarily disagree with you.
However... in the *context* of this thread, it's huge in that the DSID
cookie is active as soon as the user logs into their Google Account.
My beef is people complaining that they "can't" have privacy when they
really mean they don't bother to do anything about having privacy.

Post by David Wade
What on earth is google going to do with my personal info?

Again, you bring up an astute point about what's the real threat here.
Unfortunately, the answer to that question could fill a book even if we
only look at lawsuits which Google lost, so I won't even try to answer.
But I get your point that you're not worried about Google getting your
data, and let's be clear, I have plenty of Google Accounts myself.
I even have Google Voice (but I use it only on the iPad for privacy
reasons), so I get your point that Google can have "some" of your data.
I weigh the threat against the benefit, which, for example, is why I won't
ever use Google Voice on Android but I'm happy to use Google Voice on iOS.

Post by David Wade
Lets take my contacts. Because everyone else does not hide their
contacts from google, pretty sure google can work out who my contacts
are by cross tabulating info from every one else.

I'm always in amazement at how many apps want access to our contacts.
I get it that it's a phone, and phones contact people, and nobody remembers
everyone by their phone number, so we all maintain a contacts database.
Where I take umbrage is everyone who has "my contact information" is
uploading it to the whole world without asking my permission to do that.
Alas, those same people are uploading my Wi-Fi unique BSSID & GPS location
(although I hide my broadcast & I add "_nomap" to the end of the SSID & I
set my phone to not seek out my hidden SSID for automatic connection, and I
have the MAC on every connection randomized etc., so I do my part for
privacy - but the vast majority of people wouldn't even understand a single
clause in that sentence above - because they know nothing about privacy.
All I can do is try to keep as little of that information available to them
since the vast majority of people do EXACTLY what marketing tells them to.
My main beef is people claim they "can't" have privacy from Google. And
yet, they can.
They just have to stop doing EXACTLY what marketing people tell them to do.
They need to think.

Post by David Wade
Take my location, well my car tracks that any way. Usually I am with
one of my contacts, I bet their phone allows tracking. So again google
can figure out where I am without access to my GPS...

I again agree with you that even if YOU don't allow Google to track you,
all the people around you are so incredibly stupid, that THEY are letting
Google track you (see my example above of the Wi-Fi access point data).
I don't disagree that the vast majority of people are so unfathomably
stupid, that they are really the direct threat to your privacy - not Google
directly.
As an example, if you don't hide your SSID broadcast, then those stupid
people are sending Google your unique BSSID & GPS location every time they
drive by your house. You can't fix stupid people. All you can do is ensure
that the information they get is of no use to Google & that takes work.
1. Set your SSID to a unique name (for butterfly hash obfuscation)
2. Set your SSID to end with "_nomap" in case it gets uploaded 3. Set
your SSID to be "hidden" (as in not automatically broadcast)
4. Randomize the MAC for every access point (which is now the default)
5. Randomize your MAC upon every connection (which is NOT the default)
6. Set your phone to NOT automatically reconnect (again, not the default)
etc.
Since stupid people outnumber you a million to one, the onus is on you to
prevent your unique information from being uploaded to the google servers.

Post by David Wade
.. I think the real reason people just sign into a google account is
because they don't see a need to maintain privacy. They have paid for
functionality, and they want it all too work without having to
research other options, which are likely to be less secure than google...

Here's where I agree and disagree with you. a. I agree that signing into
Google is the *easy* way to get functionality
b. But I disagree that it's the more secure way of doing things
For every Google app, there's a FOSS privacy-aware replacement, which is
*more secure*, so I must take umbrage at your claim that it's less secure.

Because such apps receive less scrutiny from the "ethical hacker"
community, and have much less use, I would argue that they are more
liable to contain security vulnerabilities than googles code and so be
more vulnerable. One has to balance this with reward, so as they are
lightly used when compared to google they are less likely to be
targetting by hackers...

Post by Marion
But I do agree with you that the easy way out is to just log into a Google
Account; however, I wonder if people realize their phone actually works
better without it?

Really? How so? How can for example having to copy my contacts every
time I save one be "better". I should have that I do own more than one
PC so keeping the whole lot in sync? Export and re-import into my house
voip phone?

Then the calendar/diary. When I book an appointment in the dentist its
in my google calendar on all my PCs.



Dave

[Marion]

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion
For every Google app, there's a FOSS privacy-aware replacement, which is
*more secure*, so I must take umbrage at your claim that it's less secure.

Because such apps receive less scrutiny from the "ethical hacker"
community, and have much less use, I would argue that they are more
liable to contain security vulnerabilities than googles code and so be
more vulnerable. One has to balance this with reward, so as they are
lightly used when compared to google they are less likely to be
targetting by hackers...

Well, I get your point that you feel Google must have the best coders in
the world, but we're weighing privacy here, where Google's coders aren't
likely all that worried about our privacy - whereas the coders for, oh,
say, FairEmail, Aurora & NewPipe & Bromite (just to name a few) are.

Again, I'm not annoyed by anyone who says "I don't have privacy from Google
because I don't know what I'm doing so I do whatever Google tells me to
do"; but it bothers me when someone says they "can't" have privacy from
Google - because you can.

Just ditching the Google apps that those five open source replacements
replace alone, plus ditching the Google Account set up on the phone alone
provides tremendous privacy from Google - and you *gain* functionality.

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion
But I do agree with you that the easy way out is to just log into a Google
Account; however, I wonder if people realize their phone actually works
better without it?

Really? How so?

Um... everyone knows that...
FairEmail is more functionality than the GMail app is.
Aurora is more functional than the Google Play Store app is.
NewPipe is more functional than the Google YouTube app is.
Bromite functional than the Chrome browser app is.

If they don't know that, then they know nothing about privacy.
And therefore, they're not qualified to say you "can't" have privacy.

All they are qualified to say is that they do exactly what Google tells
them to do, and as a result, they "don't" have any privacy from Google.

Post by David Wade
How can for example having to copy my contacts every
time I save one be "better". I should have that I do own more than one
PC so keeping the whole lot in sync? Export and re-import into my house
voip phone?

I manage my contacts database outside the default sqlite location and I
have no problem managing them. But then I know how Android works so I have
an advantage over most people who do not know how Android manages contacts.

Post by David Wade
Then the calendar/diary. When I book an appointment in the dentist its
in my google calendar on all my PCs.

I have no problem managing my calendar either. What makes you think only
Google knows how to create a calendar app?

I think you're confused since you seem to think that the "cloud" is an app.

But I do get your point which is if you do EXACTLY what Google tells you to
do, Google has everything all figured out for you. And that's easy for you.

Because you don't have to think.
And not thinking has an immense value for you, which I get is useful.

Me?
I prefer to think about what's the best way to manage contacts & calendars.

But I've been in computers since the sixties and you might be a young kid.
Young kids don't have any concept of thinking about how to do things.

They just do whatever the marketing people tell them to do.
Without even thinking about what the implications are.

[David Wade]

Post by Marion

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion
For every Google app, there's a FOSS privacy-aware replacement, which is
*more secure*, so I must take umbrage at your claim that it's less secure.

Because such apps receive less scrutiny from the "ethical hacker"
community, and have much less use, I would argue that they are more
liable to contain security vulnerabilities than googles code and so be
more vulnerable. One has to balance this with reward, so as they are
lightly used when compared to google they are less likely to be
targetting by hackers...

Well, I get your point that you feel Google must have the best coders in
the world, but we're weighing privacy here, where Google's coders aren't
likely all that worried about our privacy - whereas the coders for, oh,
say, FairEmail, Aurora & NewPipe & Bromite (just to name a few) are.

Not at all, what I said was that googles code gets more external
scrutiny. It has a bug finders program that pays out to those who find
bugs and security vulnerabilities, which is why we found the "DSID"
cookie. The others don´t have this...

Post by Marion
Again, I'm not annoyed by anyone who says "I don't have privacy from Google
because I don't know what I'm doing so I do whatever Google tells me to
do"; but it bothers me when someone says they "can't" have privacy from
Google - because you can.

You can, but it takes a lot of work to duplicate all the things google
does, and for most people they may miss something important, like a find
my phone app,

Post by Marion
Just ditching the Google apps that those five open source replacements
replace alone, plus ditching the Google Account set up on the phone alone
provides tremendous privacy from Google - and you *gain* functionality.

what funcionality do you gain?

Post by Marion

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion
But I do agree with you that the easy way out is to just log into a Google
Account; however, I wonder if people realize their phone actually works
better without it?

Really? How so?

Um... everyone knows that... FairEmail is more functionality than the
GMail app is.
Aurora is more functional than the Google Play Store app is.
NewPipe is more functional than the Google YouTube app is.
Bromite functional than the Chrome browser app is.
If they don't know that, then they know nothing about privacy.
And therefore, they're not qualified to say you "can't" have privacy.
All they are qualified to say is that they do exactly what Google tells
them to do, and as a result, they "don't" have any privacy from Google.

Post by David Wade
How can for example having to copy my contacts every time I save one
be "better". I should have that I do own more than one PC so keeping
the whole lot in sync? Export and re-import into my house voip phone?

I manage my contacts database outside the default sqlite location and I
have no problem managing them. But then I know how Android works so I have
an advantage over most people who do not know how Android manages contacts.

Post by David Wade
Then the calendar/diary. When I book an appointment in the dentist its
in my google calendar on all my PCs.

I have no problem managing my calendar either. What makes you think only
Google knows how to create a calendar app?
I think you're confused since you seem to think that the "cloud" is an app.

I don´t. In fact I use Thunderbird on my PC, BUT I need calendars I can
share with other people who use google calendars.

Post by Marion
But I do get your point which is if you do EXACTLY what Google tells you to
do, Google has everything all figured out for you. And that's easy for you.
Because you don't have to think.
And not thinking has an immense value for you, which I get is useful.
Me? I prefer to think about what's the best way to manage contacts &
calendars.

Perhaps you are not blessed with a wife with an iPad addiction.

Post by Marion
But I've been in computers since the sixties and you might be a young kid.
Young kids don't have any concept of thinking about how to do things.

I started on Fortran II as my first high level language...

Post by Marion
They just do whatever the marketing people tell them to do.
Without even thinking about what the implications are

No , I think they don´t see the extra privacy invasion as a privacy
invasion. A few people opting out isn't going to reduce googles
knowledge base about me by much.

Dave

[Marion]

Post by David Wade
Not at all, what I said was that googles code gets more external
scrutiny. It has a bug finders program that pays out to those who find
bugs and security vulnerabilities, which is why we found the "DSID"
cookie. The others don't have this...

Ah. My fault. I see now. You did say that. My mistake. I went off on a
tangent. Sorry. You're saying there are a lot of eyes on Google's code
base, which, you're saying, isn't on the open source code base. Right?

I guess it depends on how much of the Google apps are open source.
Are all the Google packages open source?

I'm not sure if they are, e.g., is the YouTube app open source?
The YouTube app replacements *are* open source.

Likewise, is the Google Mail app open source?
The Google Mail app replacements *are* open source.

Similarly, is the Google Play Store app open source?
The Google Play Store app replacement *is* open source.

Indeed, is the Google Maps app open source?
The Google Maps replacement apps *are* open source.

Is the Chrome app (which is based on Chromium which is open source) open?
The google chrome replacement apps *are* open source.

This goes on for a while since none of those Google apps are open source.
Meanwhile, the replacements are open source.

So the eyes-on-the-code issue you kindly bring up is quite apropos.

Q: Which has more independent eyes on the code?
a. These apps which only Google has the code to? or,
b. Those apps which the whole world can see the code for?

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion
Again, I'm not annoyed by anyone who says "I don't have privacy from Google
because I don't know what I'm doing so I do whatever Google tells me to
do"; but it bothers me when someone says they "can't" have privacy from
Google - because you can.

You can, but it takes a lot of work to duplicate all the things google
does, and for most people they may miss something important, like a find
my phone app,

I think you answered the question of why people don't hit the "skip"
button. And it's that they have to think. They don't want to think.

And that's OK.
Google will be happy to tell them exactly how to think & what to do.

Luckily, the approach I promulgate doesn't require all that much thinking.
Since someone else already determined the 1:1 replacement for Google apps.

An example is the Chrome app (which definitely has proprietary elements)
can be replaced by Bromite (which doesn't have those proprietary elements).

But I agree with you and appreciate that you explain why people don't do
that. It's easier to use Chrome than it is to download & install Bromite.

It's easier to use the YouTube app than it is to install NewPipe.
It's easier to use the GMail app than it is to install open source MUAs.
It's easier to use the Google Play Store app than it is to install Aurora.
etc.

Thanks for the information. Much appreciated.

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion
Just ditching the Google apps that those five open source replacements
replace alone, plus ditching the Google Account set up on the phone alone
provides tremendous privacy from Google - and you *gain* functionality.

what funcionality do you gain?

Hmmm.... that's a rather strange question to ask. The answer is obvious.
Why do you think those 1:1 open source replacements exist for Google apps?

Google app functionality sucks like you can't believe compared to what the
open source apps do. There's no comparison. Most Google apps are terrible.

For example, the Aurora app can automatically save the installer APK, and
the Aurora app can give you a far better search engine (although not as
good a search engine that Skyica provides to the user).

When you try a real search engine for apps (like Skyica), you'll see how
astoundingly crappy the Google Play Store search engine is. It's horrid.

When you delete Google apps to replace them with the open source apps, you
*gain* functionality because the open source apps give you what you want.

For example, the NewPipe app can download (& rip) every video stream.
Do you think the Google YouTube app is going to allow that functionality?

In addition, I've never seen a Google-inserted advertisement while watching
YouTube videos. This is astoundingly useful functionality, don't you think?

Do you think the Google YouTube app is going to let you watch videos on
YouTube all day, every day, without ever seeing a Google-inserted ad?

C'mon. Google is *never* going to give you that functionality (for free).
Yes, I'm aware that for about $75 a month, there's YouTube+ that does some
of that, but still, even for $75/month you don't get free download/ripping.

The fact you're asking 'if' the Google replacements have more functionality
means you don't know anything about them. Which is OK, as only probably one
in a million people (my estimate) know anything outside Google propaganda.

Suffice to say ditching Google apps instantly gives you *more*
functionality, and hitting the "skip" button is the single most important
thing a (non-rooted) Android owner can do to enhance privacy from Google.

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion
I have no problem managing my calendar either. What makes you think only
Google knows how to create a calendar app?
I think you're confused since you seem to think that the "cloud" is an app.

I don't. In fact I use Thunderbird on my PC, BUT I need calendars I can
share with other people who use google calendars.

Well, there's a vCal/iCal files.
What's wrong with sharing calendars with those?
That's why they exist. Right?

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion
Me? I prefer to think about what's the best way to manage contacts &
calendars.

Perhaps you are not blessed with a wife with an iPad addiction.

Heh heh heh... we all have a wife - which takes a *lot* of time, I agree!

As for Apple stuff, I might have more iPads & iPhones than you do, which
you can see from my many posts on the Apple newsgroups - and - while I only
have one wife, I have plenty of grandkids, and even one great grandchild -
so we're both probably quite busy with other things than our Android phone.

To give you an idea about the wifey, Amazon picks only four people out of a
million to invite to Amazon Vine (Silver) & in the past five months, she's
amassed over eight-thousand dollars of free "stuff" ordering from Amazon.
<https://www.amazon.com/vine/about>

No sales tax. No shipping. No returns allowed. You have to hold it for six
months. But then you can do whatever you want with all that free stuff.
<https://www.estorefactory.com/blog/amazon-vine-program/>

But I have to do the reviews for all that free stuff she orders from
Amazon; my point being that having a wife keeping you busy is nothing
compared to having a wife who is on Amazon Vine keeping you busy! :)
<https://www.ecomengine.com/blog/how-vine-works>

I should be happy as the total she's allowed to get for free from Amazon,
at the moment, is only $54,000/year, but if Amazon promotes me from Silver
to Gold, that maximum amount of free stuff off Amazon jumps to infinity.
<https://www.junglescout.com/resources/articles/amazon-vine-program/>

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion
But I've been in computers since the sixties and you might be a young kid.
Young kids don't have any concept of thinking about how to do things.

I started on Fortran II as my first high level language...

Yeah. Me too. Fortran 77 was my first language (before Fortran IV existed!)
See this thread where we discussed our computer-coding histories together.
�<https://www.novabbs.com/rocksolid/article-flat.php?id=85560&group=alt.comp.os.windows-10#85560>

so we're both old men, wizened by experience, where my experience was
always to "think" about what I'm doing and not accept propaganda as fact.

Unfortunately, my estimate is only one out of million people realizes that
almost everything Apple/Google say is propaganda, where the problem with
that (brilliant) propaganda is it's so pervasive they don't question it.

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion
They just do whatever the marketing people tell them to do.
Without even thinking about what the implications are

No , I think they don´t see the extra privacy invasion as a privacy
invasion. A few people opting out isn't going to reduce googles
knowledge base about me by much.

I agree with you that the one in a million people who don't fall for
Google's propaganda isn't going to reduce Google's data collection.

Yet, it still amazes me that people complain about lack of privacy and yet,
at the same time they don't bother to hit the "skip" button when Google
asks to invade it.

They get *more* functionality by hitting the "skip" button, and they don't
even know it. Sigh. Anyway, thanks for explaining why they do that.

It's anathema to me NOT to hit the skip button, just as much as it's
"natural" to the sheep to be led to the abattoir by not hitting "skip".

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by David Wade
Then the calendar/diary. When I book an appointment in the dentist its
in my google calendar on all my PCs.

And in Thunderbird.

[David Rance]

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by David Wade
Then the calendar/diary. When I book an appointment in the dentist its
in my google calendar on all my PCs.

And in Thunderbird.

?? Really? Doesn't happen on my Thunderbird. What have I missed?

David

[David Wade]

Post by David Rance

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by David Wade
Then the calendar/diary. When I book an appointment in the dentist
its in my google calendar on all my PCs.

And in Thunderbird.

?? Really? Doesn't happen on my Thunderbird. What have I missed?
David

Not sure latest Thunderbird brings in Calendars from Google & Outlook..
.. just not iCloud....

Dave

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by David Rance

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by David Wade
Then the calendar/diary. When I book an appointment in the dentist
its in my google calendar on all my PCs.

And in Thunderbird.

?? Really? Doesn't happen on my Thunderbird. What have I missed?

An addon.

Provider for Google Calendar
Allows bidirectional access to Google Calendar

This extension allows Thunderbird to read and write events and tasks to
a Google Calendar.

Please read the FAQ for frequent questions and troubleshooting before
requesting support or filing a bug.

Community Support is available here. If you are certain you found a bug
please file an issue.


Author Philipp Kewisch
Version 128.0.0
Last Updated 15 July 2024


Homepage
https://addons.thunderbird.net/thunderbird/addon/provider-for-google-calendar/

[David Rance]

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by David Rance

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by David Wade
Then the calendar/diary. When I book an appointment in the dentist
its in my google calendar on all my PCs.

And in Thunderbird.

?? Really? Doesn't happen on my Thunderbird. What have I missed?

An addon.
Provider for Google Calendar
Allows bidirectional access to Google Calendar
This extension allows Thunderbird to read and write events and tasks to
a Google Calendar.

Thanks, Carlos. I've downloaded the add-on and installed it but it still
doesn't work. I read somewhere on the download page that it doesn't work
with the latest update to Thunderbird. :-(

David

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by David Rance

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by David Rance

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by David Wade
Then the calendar/diary. When I book an appointment in the dentist
its in my google calendar on all my PCs.

And in Thunderbird.

?? Really? Doesn't happen on my Thunderbird. What have I missed?

An addon.
Provider for Google Calendar
Allows bidirectional access to Google Calendar
This extension allows Thunderbird to read and write events and tasks
to a Google Calendar.

Thanks, Carlos. I've downloaded the add-on and installed it but it still
doesn't work. I read somewhere on the download page that it doesn't work
with the latest update to Thunderbird.  :-(

Dunno. It is working here, using 128.7.0esr

The first time it connects it may ask for permission on the phone.

[David Wade]

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by David Rance

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by David Rance

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by David Wade
Then the calendar/diary. When I book an appointment in the dentist
its in my google calendar on all my PCs.

And in Thunderbird.

?? Really? Doesn't happen on my Thunderbird. What have I missed?

An addon.
Provider for Google Calendar
Allows bidirectional access to Google Calendar
This extension allows Thunderbird to read and write events and tasks
to a Google Calendar.

Thanks, Carlos. I've downloaded the add-on and installed it but it
still doesn't work. I read somewhere on the download page that it
doesn't work with the latest update to Thunderbird.  :-(

Dunno. It is working here, using 128.7.0esr
The first time it connects it may ask for permission on the phone.

You don't need the add-in on the current Thunderbird for events. I see
my calendar with no add-ons. If you have a google e-mail account set up
in Thunderbird go to the calendar pane, click "new calendar", chose
"network" and out your google account name in the user box, leave the
URL blank and click "Find Calendars" and chose which you want to sync.

Dave

Dave

[David Rance]

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by David Rance

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by David Rance

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by David Wade
Then the calendar/diary. When I book an appointment in the dentist
its in my google calendar on all my PCs.

And in Thunderbird.

?? Really? Doesn't happen on my Thunderbird. What have I missed?

An addon.
Provider for Google Calendar
Allows bidirectional access to Google Calendar
This extension allows Thunderbird to read and write events and tasks
to a Google Calendar.

Thanks, Carlos. I've downloaded the add-on and installed it but it
still doesn't work. I read somewhere on the download page that it
doesn't work with the latest update to Thunderbird.  :-(

Dunno. It is working here, using 128.7.0esr

Mine is 128.8.0esr

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Marion

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion
Just hit the "skip" button when it asks you to set up Android with it.
I don't know why everyone doesn't do that - but it's what I do.

Probably because when we have a new phone we want the backup with the
contacts and apps from our previous phone.....

Thanks for that explanation of why people set up a Google Account on their
phone, one reason being that contacts are automatically backed up.
I can completely understand that concept, which is that contacts can be
backed up, as certainly, a Google Account, by default, will do that feat.
But so can just about any program that claims to "back up contacts" right?
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.simpler.backup>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?
id=com.contacts.backup.sim.phone.number.transfer.restore>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.dktlabs.contacts>

Why would we use "any program" when the phone does it on its own with
the default software and the google account, as designed?

It is plain simple. It happens automatically even for people that don't
understand a word about computing and can not follow instructions.

[Marion]

Post by Carlos E.R.
Why would we use "any program" when the phone does it on its own with
the default software and the google account, as designed?
It is plain simple. It happens automatically even for people that don't
understand a word about computing and can not follow instructions.

Thanks for explaining that the main reason, if not the only reason, people
set up a Google Account on the phone is that it's simply the easy way out.

And there's nothing wrong with taking the easy way out of any situation.
Unless the detrimental drawbacks of being lazy greatly affects others.

And, in this case, not hitting the skip button is lazy & rude (IMHO).

Within the context of this thread (which is mainly about DSID cookies),
my main objections proposed to people who take the easy way out are:
1. They should not ever complain that they "can't" have privacy;
2. And, they're being supremely rude to every human around them.

Again, it's fine for people to be lazy & rude, but it's also fine for me to
point out that anyone so lazy as to accept the defaults, is a rude person.

a. They're uploading my contacts to servers without my permission;
b. They're uploading my private information (such as my home location) too;
c. They're often uploading pictures that may have my photo in them, etc.

Unfortunately, probably one out of a million people are NOT lazy & rude.

And that's just about the way to summarize this problem set, since the
single most obvious way to prevent DSID tracking is to hit the skip button.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Marion

Post by Carlos E.R.
Why would we use "any program" when the phone does it on its own with
the default software and the google account, as designed?
It is plain simple. It happens automatically even for people that
don't understand a word about computing and can not follow instructions.

Thanks for explaining that the main reason, if not the only reason, people
set up a Google Account on the phone is that it's simply the easy way out.
And there's nothing wrong with taking the easy way out of any situation.
Unless the detrimental drawbacks of being lazy greatly affects others.
And, in this case, not hitting the skip button is lazy & rude (IMHO).
Within the context of this thread (which is mainly about DSID cookies),
1. They should not ever complain that they "can't" have privacy;
2. And, they're being supremely rude to every human around them.
Again, it's fine for people to be lazy & rude, but it's also fine for me to
point out that anyone so lazy as to accept the defaults, is a rude person.
a. They're uploading my contacts to servers without my permission;
b. They're uploading my private information (such as my home location) too;
c. They're often uploading pictures that may have my photo in them, etc.
Unfortunately, probably one out of a million people are NOT lazy & rude.
And that's just about the way to summarize this problem set, since the
single most obvious way to prevent DSID tracking is to hit the skip button.

Thanks for insulting 99% of the population calling them rude.

[Marion]

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Marion
And that's just about the way to summarize this problem set, since the
single most obvious way to prevent DSID tracking is to hit the skip button.

Thanks for insulting 99% of the population calling them rude.

What do YOU call people who do those three things without your permission?
Caring? Thoughtful? Considerate? Attentive?
Choose none of the above.

Nonetheless, keeping this in context of this privacy-related thread, it's
clear the single most effective way to ameliorate the privacy loss inherent
in the Google DSID cookie is simply to hit that "skip" button.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Marion

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Marion
And that's just about the way to summarize this problem set, since the
single most obvious way to prevent DSID tracking is to hit the skip button.

Thanks for insulting 99% of the population calling them rude.

What do YOU call people who do those three things without your permission?
    Caring? Thoughtful? Considerate? Attentive?
    Choose none of the above.

Normal people. We don't need your permission. We are the huge majority,
you are outvoted.

And I live in the EU, so what Google can do here is limited. The EU has
a narrow view on data protection, and they don't see an issue with
Android phones address/phone book.

Post by Marion
Nonetheless, keeping this in context of this privacy-related thread, it's
clear the single most effective way to ameliorate the privacy loss inherent
in the Google DSID cookie is simply to hit that "skip" button.

[Marion]

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Marion
What do YOU call people who do those three things without your permission?
��� Caring? Thoughtful? Considerate? Attentive?
��� Choose none of the above.

Normal people. We don't need your permission. We are the huge majority,
you are outvoted.

Hi Carlos,

I agree.

There are many famous quotes that agree with your astute observation that
intelligent people are outvoted by the unwashed masses a million to one.

Just one of those is termed "The Tyranny of the Majority" but Henrik Ibsen
more closely agreed with us when he quipped "the majority is always wrong"
just as George Bernard Shaw is said to have calculated "2% of the people
think; 3% think they think; and 95% would rather die than think".

To wit: 95% of Android owners would rather die than think of the
implications of their supremely rude actions toward all people around them.

Only 5% are kindhearted to others such that they hit that "skip" button.

Post by Carlos E.R.
And I live in the EU, so what Google can do here is limited.

Thank God for the EU. Not so much for what they make Google do, but more
for how they tell Apple that its fundamental strategy of exploiting the
consumer's lack of intelligence has to be curtailed by someone powerful.

The US government would never tell Apple to use the same cord everyone else
uses like the EU did, where Apple consumers (somehow, inexplicably so)
believed the propaganda that having to buy proprietary cords was good for
them.

Nor would the US force Apple to put in batteries that meet the bare minimum
for longevity, nor to force Apple to make parts available to the consumer,
as Apple convinces the consumer to pay a hundred dollars a year extra for
the privilege of Apple replacing the crappy batteries in all the iPhones.

I worry about England, since they're no longer part of the EU; but the
British people (thankfully) seem to have kept some of the EU rules intact.

Apple can still sell the iPhone 14 & older in the UK, for example, as far
as I'm aware, even as the EU will halt their sales by the summer deadline.

Thank God the EU has the power to force Apple to care about people.

Post by Carlos E.R.
The EU has
a narrow view on data protection, and they don't see an issue with
Android phones address/phone book.

Given how brilliant the marketing ploys are of both Apple & Google, I
definitely appreciate that the EU (and California to some extent) curtail
their openly abusive practices, which are always anti-consumer oriented.

Thank God for the rule-making power of the EU (and the UK, & California).

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by Marion
Thanks for that explanation of why people set up a Google Account on their
phone, one reason being that contacts are automatically backed up.
I can completely understand that concept, which is that contacts can be
backed up, as certainly, a Google Account, by default, will do that feat.
But so can just about any program that claims to "back up contacts" right?
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.simpler.backup>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.contacts.backup.sim.phone.number.transfer.restore>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.dktlabs.contacts>
Note: I don't use those apps (some of which have their own cloud account)
as I simply export/import (i.e., backup/restore) my contacts sqlite
database directly to/from the PC as I don't have a Google Account set up on
my phone (although I have plenty of "Google Accounts" for the email).
To transfer my entire homescreen, from one phone to the other, including
all the folders, shortcuts and widgets, I simply use an intelligent
launcher (where I use the last known good version of Nova but others work).
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.teslacoilsw.launcher>

But how do you install from google play store without signing in to a
Google account on the phone ?

[Theo]

Post by Nick Finnigan
But how do you install from google play store without signing in to a
Google account on the phone ?

Aurora Store uses the Play Store app catalogue with an 'anonymous' pool
Google account.

It doesn't count as 'installed from Play' for Play Integrity checks, but is
otherwise functionally equivalent.

Theo

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by Theo

Post by Nick Finnigan
But how do you install from google play store without signing in to a
Google account on the phone ?

Aurora Store uses the Play Store app catalogue with an 'anonymous' pool
Google account.
It doesn't count as 'installed from Play' for Play Integrity checks, but is
otherwise functionally equivalent.

Possibly, but that is not just hit the "skip" button.

(Play store does seem to allow updates without an account).

[Marion]

Post by Nick Finnigan

Post by Theo

Post by Nick Finnigan
But how do you install from google play store without signing in to a
Google account on the phone ?

Aurora Store uses the Play Store app catalogue with an 'anonymous' pool
Google account.
It doesn't count as 'installed from Play' for Play Integrity checks, but is
otherwise functionally equivalent.

Possibly, but that is not just hit the "skip" button.
(Play store does seem to allow updates without an account).

Good ideas both of you. I'm impressed by your inquisitiveness & acumen.

These are good questions, and a good answer, although there's more to the
story since I have Google Play Store uninstalled from the user partition.

It's also a sign of good critical analysis capabilities, which I admire.
Very few people, maybe one out of a million, can answer what you just did.

Here's my quick assessment (in one line each) of the answers given above:
1. The Aurora pooled anonymous login account answer was correct.
2. The Aurora explanation that it scrapes the Google repo was correct.
3. The Play Store integrity checks answer was not correct (AFAIK).
4. The Play Store update observation was partially correct (see below).
5. Specifically, nobody realizes how *bad* the Google Play Update is!
6. The observation about the "skip" button was spot on the money!

Below is a more detailed assessment of the answers provided, where I'm
impressed at not only the answers, but the attempt at learning more.

Good for you; and good for everyone, as Android knowledge is lacking in
this world where most people "assume" too much & as a result, know nothing.

When I last did the research, it turned out that the so-called "integrity
checks" happen, no matter what, with or without the Google Play Store app.

Yes, an "activity" for the so-called "integrity checks" shows up *inside*
the Google Play Store GUI, but the integrity checks are a completely
separate system-wide undeniable action completely outside the app itself.

Even Google will tell you that since Google says *every* package is checked
daily and *every* APK is checked, no matter where it comes from, upon
initial installation (which is how "sideloaded" apps also get checked).

With respect to updating apps, the Aurora Store updates apps if you want it
to, just as F-Droid Basic does (if you bother to use it, which I don't
since you can use a PC web browser to obtain all your F-Droid apps).

But most people don't have any clue how *bad* the Google Play Store update
is, which, always amazes me that people *assume* it updates all the apps.

The Google Play Store updates almost nothing, it turns, out, which we've
proven in the past by comparing all the apps that "can" be updated versus
the apps that the (almost laughably incomplete) Google Play Store app
updates. It's shocking, actually, that nobody tests this stuff like I do.

Suffice to say anyone who is relying on the Google Play Store "update"
mechanism, has absolutely no idea of how that mechanism actually works.

If you really want all the apps updated that can be updated, there are
plenty of system-wide open source updaters, which actually do that task.

As for the observation that the "skip" button solves the DSID problem, but
not every problem, that's an example of critical thought processes. Good.

Yes. Sure, the DSID cookie is emasculated without signing into a system
wide Google Account on the phone, but in order to have twice as much
functionality without Google on the phone as with, you need the 1:1 apps.

As an example of where you get not twice, but ten or one hundred times the
functionality of the Google Play Store search, try this free app for me.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=scadica.aq>

Note: I get that app for free, but my phone is set up without a google
account, so I don't know what happens if someone with an account gets it.
<https://skyica.com/appfinder/get/>

Let me know.

[David Wade]

Post by Theo

   But how do you install from google play store without signing in to a
Google account on the phone ?

Aurora Store uses the Play Store app catalogue with an 'anonymous' pool
Google account.

So how does that work for geofenced apps? I have two play store accounts
on my Samsung as some apps are Spanish only....

Post by Theo
It doesn't count as 'installed from Play' for Play Integrity checks, but is
otherwise functionally equivalent.

 Possibly, but that is not just hit the "skip" button.
 (Play store does seem to allow updates without an account).

Dave

[Theo]

Post by David Wade

Post by Theo

   But how do you install from google play store without signing in to a
Google account on the phone ?

Aurora Store uses the Play Store app catalogue with an 'anonymous' pool
Google account.

So how does that work for geofenced apps? I have two play store accounts
on my Samsung as some apps are Spanish only....

https://auroraoss.gitbook.io/wiki/troubleshooting-and-faqs/faqs/aurora-store
last question.

Google use the connecting IP to determine location. Normally Aurora connects
for you so you get the country of their server, but you can set it to
connect direct, in which case Google use your country. To change that, use a
VPN.

You can also spoof device model and language, to avoid other blocks.

Theo

[Marion]

Post by Theo
You can also spoof device model and language, to avoid other blocks.

There's nothing stopping David Wade from logging into Google from Aurora
using any login he wants to use. It's not just for anonymous logins.

There's 10X the functionality in Aurora than in the Google Play Store app.
<Loading Image...> FOSS Google Play Store client
<Loading Image...> Aurora has useful filters
<Loading Image...> Spoof hardware & geolocation
<Loading Image...> APKs autosaved to sdcard
<Loading Image...> Basic filters for software
<Loading Image...> Google Play updates suck
<Loading Image...> Google Play updates stink
<Loading Image...> Save filter selection
<Loading Image...> Aurora saves all APKs
<Loading Image...> No need for a Google Account
<Loading Image...> Far better updaters abound
<Loading Image...> Disable/Delete Google Play
<Loading Image...> FOSS Google Play Store client
<Loading Image...> Filter out apps linked to GSF
<Loading Image...> Update any app using Aurora
<Loading Image...> Filter out Google Apps though
<Loading Image...> Don't delete APKs postinstall
<Loading Image...> Spoof any device & OS version
<Loading Image...> Save all APKs during install

Aurora is just one of the many 1:1 apps which replace the Google APKs.

Hitting that "skip" button and using 1:1 Google replacements gives you
*more* functionality, not less. I estimate it at 10X but that's a swag.

[David Wade]

Post by Theo

Post by David Wade

Post by Theo

   But how do you install from google play store without signing in to a
Google account on the phone ?

Aurora Store uses the Play Store app catalogue with an 'anonymous' pool
Google account.

So how does that work for geofenced apps? I have two play store accounts
on my Samsung as some apps are Spanish only....

https://auroraoss.gitbook.io/wiki/troubleshooting-and-faqs/faqs/aurora-store
last question.
Google use the connecting IP to determine location. Normally Aurora connects
for you so you get the country of their server, but you can set it to
connect direct, in which case Google use your country. To change that, use a
VPN.

It does not, it uses the country of the account used to log in...

https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en-GB

so if I log with my Spanish account I see Spanish apps even when in the
UK. If I log in with my UK account I can see UK only apps when in Spain.

I tried a VPN and it changes nothing. Many of my "Facebook Friends" who
own second homes in Spain have the same issues...

Post by Theo
You can also spoof device model and language, to avoid other blocks.
Theo

Dave

[Theo]

Post by David Wade

Post by Theo

Post by David Wade

Post by Theo

   But how do you install from google play store without signing in to a
Google account on the phone ?

Aurora Store uses the Play Store app catalogue with an 'anonymous' pool
Google account.

So how does that work for geofenced apps? I have two play store accounts
on my Samsung as some apps are Spanish only....

https://auroraoss.gitbook.io/wiki/troubleshooting-and-faqs/faqs/aurora-store
last question.
Google use the connecting IP to determine location. Normally Aurora connects
for you so you get the country of their server, but you can set it to
connect direct, in which case Google use your country. To change that, use a
VPN.

It does not, it uses the country of the account used to log in...
https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en-GB

*Google Play Store* does. But according to the Aurora docs the backend
server appears to do something different.

(As an illustration without evidence that it works this way) it could be
that you have a Spanish Play account, so the Play client says 'hey Google
server, show me all the Spanish apps'. But the Aurora client says 'hey
server, show me all the apps without a filter'. If the filtering is in the
client, using a non-Google client can potentially bypass it.

Post by David Wade
so if I log with my Spanish account I see Spanish apps even when in the
UK. If I log in with my UK account I can see UK only apps when in Spain.
I tried a VPN and it changes nothing. Many of my "Facebook Friends" who
own second homes in Spain have the same issues...

I don't have a VPN, but tell me the ID (com.example.whatever) of a Spanish
app that you can't see on the UK store and I can see if it can download it.

Theo

[David Wade]

Post by Theo

Post by David Wade

Post by Theo

Post by David Wade

Post by Theo

   But how do you install from google play store without signing in to a
Google account on the phone ?

Aurora Store uses the Play Store app catalogue with an 'anonymous' pool
Google account.

So how does that work for geofenced apps? I have two play store accounts
on my Samsung as some apps are Spanish only....

https://auroraoss.gitbook.io/wiki/troubleshooting-and-faqs/faqs/aurora-store
last question.
Google use the connecting IP to determine location. Normally Aurora connects
for you so you get the country of their server, but you can set it to
connect direct, in which case Google use your country. To change that, use a
VPN.

It does not, it uses the country of the account used to log in...
https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en-GB

*Google Play Store* does. But according to the Aurora docs the backend
server appears to do something different.
(As an illustration without evidence that it works this way) it could be
that you have a Spanish Play account, so the Play client says 'hey Google
server, show me all the Spanish apps'. But the Aurora client says 'hey
server, show me all the apps without a filter'. If the filtering is in the
client, using a non-Google client can potentially bypass it.

Post by David Wade
so if I log with my Spanish account I see Spanish apps even when in the
UK. If I log in with my UK account I can see UK only apps when in Spain.
I tried a VPN and it changes nothing. Many of my "Facebook Friends" who
own second homes in Spain have the same issues...

I don't have a VPN, but tell me the ID (com.example.whatever) of a Spanish
app that you can't see on the UK store and I can see if it can download it.
Theo

Theo,
This is one..

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tempos21.eroskiclub.pro

I can see it in my UK account but it says not compatible with my Device.
If I sign in with my Spanish Account it says its already installde...

Dave

[Theo]

Post by David Wade

Post by Theo

Post by David Wade
so if I log with my Spanish account I see Spanish apps even when in the
UK. If I log in with my UK account I can see UK only apps when in Spain.
I tried a VPN and it changes nothing. Many of my "Facebook Friends" who
own second homes in Spain have the same issues...

I don't have a VPN, but tell me the ID (com.example.whatever) of a Spanish
app that you can't see on the UK store and I can see if it can download it.

Theo,
This is one..
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tempos21.eroskiclub.pro
I can see it in my UK account but it says not compatible with my Device.
If I sign in with my Spanish Account it says its already installde...

Hmm, so if I take that link and share it to Aurora Store it brings up the
entry for the app, but the version number is zero. If I press Install it
says 'App not available for your device'. If I fiddle with language or
device spoofing, no change.

Aurora allows a manual download option if you know the integer versionCode
for the app (often it's something like 010203 for version 1.2.3, but not
always). A bit of digging around 'mirror' sites suggested the versionCode
for Eroski 4.3.1 XAPK is '20250128' and for 4.2.3 APK it's '20240710'. But
neither of those versionCodes work - 'the version code you are requesting is
unavailable'.

I don't have a Spanish VPN to see if this changes if I geolocate to Spain.

Theo

[Andy Burns]

Post by Theo
I don't have a Spanish VPN to see if this changes if I geolocate to Spain.

Doesn't Opera Browser provide a free VPN?

[Theo]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Theo
I don't have a Spanish VPN to see if this changes if I geolocate to Spain.

Doesn't Opera Browser provide a free VPN?

You can't select a specific country without paying, it seems.

A slight amendment to my previous post, it seems like the 'not finding a
version number' was a glitch (my end or theirs, I'm not sure). I can now see
the version number of Eroski, but it just says 'Download failed' when I try
to install it. The manual downloads still fail in the same way.

Theo

[David Wade]

Post by Theo

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Theo
I don't have a Spanish VPN to see if this changes if I geolocate to Spain.

Doesn't Opera Browser provide a free VPN?

I don't believe it makes any difference. I am currently in the UK. With
my Spanish account it offers to install on more devices, with my UK
account it, as you corrected me says:-

"This app is not available for your device"

when clearly it is because its installed.

Post by Theo
You can't select a specific country without paying, it seems.
A slight amendment to my previous post, it seems like the 'not finding a
version number' was a glitch (my end or theirs, I'm not sure). I can now see
the version number of Eroski, but it just says 'Download failed' when I try
to install it. The manual downloads still fail in the same way.

You might also want to try this :-

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lluraferi.tiendanimal

&

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cmc.aqualiacontact.fcc

They appear top behave in the same way. As I said my experience with
Spanish only apps is that they use the play-id country code rather than
the network id for geolocation.

Dave

Post by Theo
Theo

Dave

[Theo]

Post by David Wade
You might also want to try this :-
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lluraferi.tiendanimal
&
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cmc.aqualiacontact.fcc
They appear top behave in the same way. As I said my experience with
Spanish only apps is that they use the play-id country code rather than
the network id for geolocation.

I get the same for all. Install button says 'download failed' and the
manual download with the versioncode provided by Aurora says 'The version
code you are requesting is unavailable'.

(UK IP address in all cases)

Theo

[David Wade]

Post by Theo

Post by David Wade
You might also want to try this :-
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lluraferi.tiendanimal
&
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cmc.aqualiacontact.fcc
They appear top behave in the same way. As I said my experience with
Spanish only apps is that they use the play-id country code rather than
the network id for geolocation.

I get the same for all. Install button says 'download failed' and the
manual download with the versioncode provided by Aurora says 'The version
code you are requesting is unavailable'.
(UK IP address in all cases)
Theo

Theo,
I don't believe the IP makes any difference. I am in the UK and can
download the apps.
Dave

[Bill Powell]

Post by David Wade
As I said my experience with
Spanish only apps is that they use the play-id country code rather than
the network id for geolocation.

Can you log into Aurora using your Play ID country code for Spain?

[David Wade]

Post by Bill Powell

As I said my experience with Spanish only apps is that they use the
play-id country code rather than the network id for geolocation.

Can you log into Aurora using your Play ID country code for Spain?

Well it then means google is aware of what apps I am using?

Does it mean Aurora can use the card attached to that Play Account?

Don't I have to sign in to Google Play at some point to create the account?

Dave

[Theo]

Post by David Wade

Post by Bill Powell

As I said my experience with Spanish only apps is that they use the
play-id country code rather than the network id for geolocation.

Can you log into Aurora using your Play ID country code for Spain?

Well it then means google is aware of what apps I am using?
Does it mean Aurora can use the card attached to that Play Account?
Don't I have to sign in to Google Play at some point to create the account?

Aurora can use either your Google account or one of their anonymous pool
accounts. If you use your own account I think it works similar to the usual
Play Store client. It won't let you buy apps, but will install paid apps
you previously bought (either in Play Store app or on the website).

However Aurora do say:

"However, you may want to be careful as Google retains full rights to block
any account under their Google Play Terms of Service §4, because using
Aurora Store clearly violates their terms of services. Being banned means
that the very Google account you used to sign in with will be blocked
forever. It might be worth using a dummy account for that reason.

If you do happen to get your Google account banned, you can try appealing,
which may or may not work. If they reject your appeal then there's nothing
much you can do about that account. You can try your luck by filling out
their form here."

https://auroraoss.gitbook.io/wiki/troubleshooting-and-faqs/faqs/aurora-store#why-would-i-use-my-own-account-is-it-safe

As for geolocation, the Aurora folks say the apps you can access are based
on IP location rather than the country of the Google account. Perhaps being
an unofficial client allows them to do things that the official Play Store
app won't do? I'm only repeating what it says in their FAQ - I have no
ability to test this.

However Aurora does show me UK apps even using their anonymous account. As
I assume Aurora's anonymous accounts are not all for the UK, I can only
assume it's using a generic account and it's Google who are geolocating.

Theo

[David Wade]

Post by Theo

Post by David Wade

Post by Bill Powell

As I said my experience with Spanish only apps is that they use the
play-id country code rather than the network id for geolocation.

Can you log into Aurora using your Play ID country code for Spain?

Well it then means google is aware of what apps I am using?
Does it mean Aurora can use the card attached to that Play Account?
Don't I have to sign in to Google Play at some point to create the account?

Aurora can use either your Google account or one of their anonymous pool
accounts. If you use your own account I think it works similar to the usual
Play Store client. It won't let you buy apps, but will install paid apps
you previously bought (either in Play Store app or on the website).
"However, you may want to be careful as Google retains full rights to block
any account under their Google Play Terms of Service §4, because using
Aurora Store clearly violates their terms of services. Being banned means
that the very Google account you used to sign in with will be blocked
forever. It might be worth using a dummy account for that reason.

I had no end of problems setting up a Spanish Play account. I have no
wish to get it banned...

Post by Theo
If you do happen to get your Google account banned, you can try appealing,
which may or may not work. If they reject your appeal then there's nothing
much you can do about that account. You can try your luck by filling out
their form here."
https://auroraoss.gitbook.io/wiki/troubleshooting-and-faqs/faqs/aurora-store#why-would-i-use-my-own-account-is-it-safe
As for geolocation, the Aurora folks say the apps you can access are based
on IP location rather than the country of the Google account. Perhaps being
an unofficial client allows them to do things that the official Play Store
app won't do? I'm only repeating what it says in their FAQ - I have no
ability to test this.

This does not appear to be true.

Post by Theo
However Aurora does show me UK apps even using their anonymous account. As
I assume Aurora's anonymous accounts are not all for the UK, I can only
assume it's using a generic account and it's Google who are geolocating.
Theo

It appears that if you do anything slightly out of the ordinary you may
need to violate google terms of service. It seems its not as simple as
just saying skip when setting up the phone...

Dave

[Bill Powell]

Post by Theo
I can only
assume it's using a generic account and it's Google who are geolocating.

I looked at my Aurora which is logged in as ***@gmail.com

How did that get such a perfect anonymous account name?
It's so obvious that I would think Google would have to have approved it.

[Theo]

Post by Bill Powell

Post by Theo
I can only
assume it's using a generic account and it's Google who are geolocating.

How did that get such a perfect anonymous account name?
It's so obvious that I would think Google would have to have approved it.

I assume that's not actually the email address. They have a pool of
emails/passwords which are fetched from their 'token server'. I presume
they don't want to advertise the real email address to avoid them being
blocked.

Theo

[Marion]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Theo
I don't have a Spanish VPN to see if this changes if I geolocate to Spain.

Doesn't Opera Browser provide a free VPN?

Hi Andy,

To be helpful... Opera has a payware system-wide VPN; it's not free.
ProtonMail has a freeware system-wide VPN; but it requires registration.
FreeOpenVPN.org has a freeware system-wide VPN; which doesn't require it.

There are plenty of others, but those are the three I'd point out.

Back on Android, Aurora allows you to choose any account, so if the person
asking has a "Spanish" account, I don't see that he has tested that out?

It should work for him, right?

Anyway, back to the VPN, it's just as simple on Android as it would be on
Windows for *everyone* to already "Have a VPN" since it's so easy & free.

1. Install a free openvpn APK on Android
2. Download any of thousands of free openvpn config text files

The prior instructions for Windows are the same for Android with the minor
difference being the actual openvpn installer being an APK (not an EXE).
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.openvpn.openvpn>

As before, you can get free no-registration required free VPN configs here:
<https://www.freeopenvpn.org/>

I have thousands of these config files on my system as I have an automatic
rotator that constantly rotates between VPNs every moment that I'm online.

In summary, nobody can ever complain that they "Don't have a VPN" since
they're freely available to everyone who can copy a text file over the net.

The goal is
a. No registration (i.e., the credentials are the same for everyone!)
b. Free & easy to use (often they have a public user/pass for everyone)
c. You choose the VPN software & protocol (not the VPN provider!)

Note to those who are "triggered" to lecture about how "unsafe" they feel
with VPN. Notice the goals above. And notice it's for IP obfuscation at the
end site. For that, the no-registration VPNs work perfectly, does they not?

[Frank Slootweg]

David Wade <***@dave.invalid> wrote:
[...]

Post by David Wade
Theo,
This is one..
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tempos21.eroskiclub.pro
I can see it in my UK account but it says not compatible with my Device.
If I sign in with my Spanish Account it says its already installde...

To nitpick: It probably says "This app is not available for any of
your devices", i.e. not available, not not compatible.

If it's not compatible, for example too old Android version, it
normally says so. For example when I try to install the 'F1 TV' app [1]
on my Android 5.0.2 tablet: "This item is not compatible with your
device".

[1] <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.formulaone.production>

[Marion]

Post by Theo

Post by David Wade
I tried a VPN and it changes nothing. Many of my "Facebook Friends" who
own second homes in Spain have the same issues...

I don't have a VPN, but tell me the ID (com.example.whatever) of a Spanish
app that you can't see on the UK store and I can see if it can download it.

Hi Theo,

The "I don't have a VPN" can be "solved" instantly since they're free
without login accounts needed. There are many that are free.

In fact, I just counted over three thousand free "VPN's" on my system.
From almost every country in the world. They're nothing but text files.

To "Have VPN", all you need are two things, both of which are free:
1. The free OpenVPN software
2. A free openvpn configuration file (which is "the" VPN)

This works on all platforms, but let's assume, for the moment, Windows:
The free open source openvpn client I recommend for Windows is
<https://openvpn.net/community-downloads/>
Press the orange button for the "Windows 64-bit MSI installer".

Once you have the openvpn client, then you just need free openvpn text
configuration files that work with the openvpn server you just installed.

One of the most common set of free openvpn files are here:
<https://www.freeopenvpn.org/>

From here on, it could get complicated as you don't know networking most
likely but if you see a choice between "tcp" or "udp", don't worry about
that - just pick one (I would pick "udp" but it doesn't really matter).

The file you download will be something like "USA_freeopenvpn_tcp.ovpn".
(There are many countries to choose from, the UK being another one.)

Since this is a free solution, they change that ovpn file every few
months (about twice a year) and they keep the username the same but they
change the password every day or so, so you have to go to the web page
and write down the password when using it.

They make it a pain on purpose because they want to sell you a solution,
but I've used it for a long time, as have probably millions daily.

In summary, EVERYONE "has a VPN" since they're free and simple.
All you need is the openvpn software and an openvpn configuration file.

[Frank Slootweg]

Post by David Wade

Post by Theo

Post by David Wade

Post by Theo

   But how do you install from google play store without signing in to a
Google account on the phone ?

Aurora Store uses the Play Store app catalogue with an 'anonymous' pool
Google account.

So how does that work for geofenced apps? I have two play store accounts
on my Samsung as some apps are Spanish only....

https://auroraoss.gitbook.io/wiki/troubleshooting-and-faqs/faqs/aurora-store
last question.
Google use the connecting IP to determine location. Normally Aurora connects
for you so you get the country of their server, but you can set it to
connect direct, in which case Google use your country. To change that, use a
VPN.

It does not, it uses the country of the account used to log in...
https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en-GB
so if I log with my Spanish account I see Spanish apps even when in the
UK. If I log in with my UK account I can see UK only apps when in Spain.
I tried a VPN and it changes nothing. Many of my "Facebook Friends" who
own second homes in Spain have the same issues...

In my experience, it (the 'Play Store' app) does - or at least can -
do *both*, i.e. 1) the country of the account [1] used to log in or/and
2) the connecting IP address.

For example, I had no access to certain Australian apps from The
Netherlands, because when I was still in NL, I was geofenced on my
Dutch IP and when I was in Australia I was geofenced because my Google
Account has a Dutch address. Catch-22. (In the end, I got the app from
apkpure.com.)

I had contact with one of the developers and what I could determine
from their info is that an app developer can specify which of these two
geofencing blocks they want to use.

Post by David Wade

Post by Theo
You can also spoof device model and language, to avoid other blocks.

[1] IIRC, Google has a specific term for this "country of the account"
attribute, but I can't remember the name and it's too much effort to try
to dig it up again.

[Marion]

Post by Frank Slootweg
Google has a specific term for this "country of the account"
attribute, but I can't remember the name and it's too much effort to try
to dig it up again.

The term you're looking for is likely "Google Play country".
Sometimes it's called the "Play Store country".
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/thread/299769746/important-information-regarding-google-play-country-settings-you-should-know?hl=en>

It affects:
a. Content Availability
b. Pricing and Payment Methods
c. Legal and Regulatory Compliance

*How to change your Google Play country*
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en>

Warning: There is a waiting period, and it's long (12 months!)
before you can change it again, so don't change it lightly!
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en#:~:text=After%20you%20initially%20set%20up,you%20can%20make%20another%20change>

[David Wade]

Post by Marion

Post by Frank Slootweg
Google has a specific term for this "country of the account"
attribute, but I can't remember the name and it's too much effort to try
to dig it up again.

The term you're looking for is likely "Google Play country".
Sometimes it's called the "Play Store country".
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/thread/299769746/important-information-regarding-google-play-country-settings-you-should-know?hl=en>
a. Content Availability
b. Pricing and Payment Methods
c. Legal and Regulatory Compliance
*How to change your Google Play country*
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en>
Warning: There is a waiting period, and it's long (12 months!)
before you can change it again, so don't change it lightly!
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en#:~:text=After%20you%20initially%20set%20up,you%20can%20make%20another%20change>

Which is why I have two accounts on my phone...

Dave

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion

Post by Frank Slootweg
Google has a specific term for this "country of the account"
attribute, but I can't remember the name and it's too much effort to try
to dig it up again.

The term you're looking for is likely "Google Play country".
Sometimes it's called the "Play Store country".
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/thread/299769746/important-
information-regarding-google-play-country-settings-you-should-know?hl=en>
a. Content Availability
b. Pricing and Payment Methods
c. Legal and Regulatory Compliance
*How to change your Google Play country*
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en>
Warning: There is a waiting period, and it's long (12 months!)
before you can change it again, so don't change it lightly!
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?
hl=en#:~:text=After%20you%20initially%20set%20up,you%20can%20make%20another%20change>

Which is why I have two accounts on my phone...

Caray.

And this because entities like Eroski says you can only have their app
if you are permanently living in Spain and have a Spanish phone.
Visitors are not allowed. This is ridiculous.

I have some Canadian applications because I visit there when I can.
Things for finding the correct city bus, for instance. I see I have been
fortunate that they did not geoblock it.

[Andy Burns]

entities like Eroski says you can only have their app if you are
permanently living in Spain

From the name, I half-expected that to be a Tindr/Grindr type app ...

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Andy Burns

entities like Eroski says you can only have their app if you are
permanently living in Spain

From the name, I half-expected that to be a Tindr/Grindr type app ...

It is a supermarket chain, owned by a cooperative. Based on Basque
country. They had to sell a lot of venues, I see on the wikipedia map
that they only have sites in the north coast of Spain, and Malaga in the
south.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eroski

I asked google the meaning of the word, and finally found it (I wondered
for years):

«If we look it up in Wikipedia, we find that EROSKI is a contraction of
the Basque words ‘erosi’ (to buy) and ‘toki’ (place), so we could
translate it as ‘place to buy’.»

[David Wade]

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion

Post by Frank Slootweg
Google has a specific term for this "country of the account"
attribute, but I can't remember the name and it's too much effort to try
to dig it up again.

The term you're looking for is likely "Google Play country".
Sometimes it's called the "Play Store country".
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/thread/299769746/important-
information-regarding-google-play-country-settings-you-should-know?hl=en>
a. Content Availability
b. Pricing and Payment Methods
c. Legal and Regulatory Compliance
*How to change your Google Play country*
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en>
Warning: There is a waiting period, and it's long (12 months!)
before you can change it again, so don't change it lightly!
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?
hl=en#:~:text=After%20you%20initially%20set%20up,you%20can%20make%20another%20change>

Which is why I have two accounts on my phone...

Caray.
And this because entities like Eroski says you can only have their app
if you are permanently living in Spain and have a Spanish phone.
Visitors are not allowed. This is ridiculous.

At least Eroski, which is a Spanish supermarket chain doesn't Geofence
their on-line ordering web site. The Carrefore Spain web site blocks me
when I am in the UK but give a spurious message about invalid e-mail
address. I also have a dual-sim phone. Eroski won't deliver white goods
without a Spanish mobile number.

Post by Carlos E.R.
I have some Canadian applications because I visit there when I can.
Things for finding the correct city bus, for instance. I see I have been
fortunate that they did not geoblock it.

Oddly, the first app I hit this with was for the local bus service. Just
the sort of thing a tourist might need. However it seems to have gone
altogether from the Web Store.

Dave

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by David Wade

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by David Wade

Post by Marion

Post by Frank Slootweg
Google has a specific term for this "country of the account"
attribute, but I can't remember the name and it's too much effort to try
to dig it up again.

The term you're looking for is likely "Google Play country".
Sometimes it's called the "Play Store country".
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/thread/299769746/important-
information-regarding-google-play-country-settings-you-should-know?
hl=en>
a. Content Availability
b. Pricing and Payment Methods
c. Legal and Regulatory Compliance
*How to change your Google Play country*
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en>
Warning: There is a waiting period, and it's long (12 months!)
before you can change it again, so don't change it lightly!
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?
hl=en#:~:text=After%20you%20initially%20set%20up,you%20can%20make%20another%20change>

Which is why I have two accounts on my phone...

Caray.
And this because entities like Eroski says you can only have their app
if you are permanently living in Spain and have a Spanish phone.
Visitors are not allowed. This is ridiculous.

At least Eroski, which is a Spanish supermarket chain doesn't Geofence
their on-line ordering web site. The Carrefore Spain web site blocks me
when I am in the UK but give a spurious message about invalid e-mail
address. I also have a dual-sim phone. Eroski won't deliver white goods
without a Spanish mobile number.

Yeah, I noticed when I send links to friends abroad pointing to some
stuff at Leroy Merlin, they are blocked, can not even see it. Some days
they can, some days they can not.

Post by David Wade

Post by Carlos E.R.
I have some Canadian applications because I visit there when I can.
Things for finding the correct city bus, for instance. I see I have
been fortunate that they did not geoblock it.

Oddly, the first app I hit this with was for the local bus service. Just
the sort of thing a tourist might need. However it seems to have gone
altogether from the Web Store.

Right!

Post by David Wade
Dave

[Frank Slootweg]

Carlos E.R. <***@es.invalid> wrote:
[...]

Post by Carlos E.R.
Caray.
And this because entities like Eroski says you can only have their app
if you are permanently living in Spain and have a Spanish phone.
Visitors are not allowed. This is ridiculous.
I have some Canadian applications because I visit there when I can.
Things for finding the correct city bus, for instance. I see I have been
fortunate that they did not geoblock it.

Yes, the geofencing in the Play Store /Google Play can be quite
idiotic.

Two examples for me, from The Netherlands:

- I own (now owned) a 4WD campervan (small mobile home) in Australia and
became a member of the CMCA (Campervan & Motorhome Club of Australia).
I could not install or update their app(s), because of geofencing, not
even when I was in Australia.

- Same story for the app of the Australian weather bureau, BOM (Bureau
of Meteorology).
Why on earth did I - a tourist - expect to be able to check the
weather of/in the country I was visiting!?

Of course in both cases I solved the problem by downloading the APKs
(and any updated APKs) from an APK archive site (apkpure.com).

[Frank Slootweg]

Post by Marion

Post by Frank Slootweg
Google has a specific term for this "country of the account"
attribute, but I can't remember the name and it's too much effort to try
to dig it up again.

The term you're looking for is likely "Google Play country".
Sometimes it's called the "Play Store country".
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/thread/299769746/important-information-regarding-google-play-country-settings-you-should-know?hl=en>
a. Content Availability
b. Pricing and Payment Methods
c. Legal and Regulatory Compliance
*How to change your Google Play country*
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en>
Warning: There is a waiting period, and it's long (12 months!)
before you can change it again, so don't change it lightly!
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en#:~:text=After%20you%20initially%20set%20up,you%20can%20make%20another%20change>

Thanks for that!

And thanks for the warning. You can't only end up with the wrong
country, but also with the wrong currency (for the correct country and
vice versa). Been there, done that, got the T-shirt (which I had to pay
in Australian dollars instead of in Euros).

Sadly the webpage only talks about changing your 'Google Play country',
but not how to check what it's currently set to.

It's reasonable to assume it's the same as the country of the 'HOME'
address of your account [1].

[1] Strangely the 'HOME' address doesn't mention the country, only the
street address and city and shows a Google Maps picture of that
location.

[David Wade]

Post by Frank Slootweg

Post by Marion

Post by Frank Slootweg
Google has a specific term for this "country of the account"
attribute, but I can't remember the name and it's too much effort to try
to dig it up again.

The term you're looking for is likely "Google Play country".
Sometimes it's called the "Play Store country".
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/thread/299769746/important-information-regarding-google-play-country-settings-you-should-know?hl=en>
a. Content Availability
b. Pricing and Payment Methods
c. Legal and Regulatory Compliance
*How to change your Google Play country*
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en>
Warning: There is a waiting period, and it's long (12 months!)
before you can change it again, so don't change it lightly!
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en#:~:text=After%20you%20initially%20set%20up,you%20can%20make%20another%20change>

Thanks for that!
And thanks for the warning. You can't only end up with the wrong
country, but also with the wrong currency (for the correct country and
vice versa). Been there, done that, got the T-shirt (which I had to pay
in Australian dollars instead of in Euros).
Sadly the webpage only talks about changing your 'Google Play country',
but not how to check what it's currently set to.
It's reasonable to assume it's the same as the country of the 'HOME'
address of your account [1].

It might be reasonable, but I don't believe its true. My "Spanish"
account has no home address set. If you read the instructions on
changing the country it does not mention changing your address.

To check what its set to just follow the instructions for changing, so

1. On your Android device, open the Google Play Store app Google Play.
2. At the top right, tap the profile icon.
3. Tap Settings and then General and then Account and device preferences
and then Country and profiles.

you can then see your country...

Post by Frank Slootweg
[1] Strangely the 'HOME' address doesn't mention the country, only the
street address and city and shows a Google Maps picture of that
location.

I wonder if things work the other way round. It uses the Play Country to
set the country for the home address.

Dave

[Frank Slootweg]

Post by David Wade

Post by Frank Slootweg

Post by Marion

Post by Frank Slootweg
Google has a specific term for this "country of the account"
attribute, but I can't remember the name and it's too much effort to try
to dig it up again.

The term you're looking for is likely "Google Play country".
Sometimes it's called the "Play Store country".
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/thread/299769746/important-information-regarding-google-play-country-settings-you-should-know?hl=en>
a. Content Availability
b. Pricing and Payment Methods
c. Legal and Regulatory Compliance
*How to change your Google Play country*
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en>
Warning: There is a waiting period, and it's long (12 months!)
before you can change it again, so don't change it lightly!
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/7431675?hl=en#:~:text=After%20you%20initially%20set%20up,you%20can%20make%20another%20change>

Thanks for that!
And thanks for the warning. You can't only end up with the wrong
country, but also with the wrong currency (for the correct country and
vice versa). Been there, done that, got the T-shirt (which I had to pay
in Australian dollars instead of in Euros).
Sadly the webpage only talks about changing your 'Google Play country',
but not how to check what it's currently set to.
It's reasonable to assume it's the same as the country of the 'HOME'
address of your account [1].

It might be reasonable, but I don't believe its true. My "Spanish"
account has no home address set. If you read the instructions on
changing the country it does not mention changing your address.
To check what its set to just follow the instructions for changing, so
1. On your Android device, open the Google Play Store app Google Play.
2. At the top right, tap the profile icon.
3. Tap Settings and then General and then Account and device preferences
and then Country and profiles.
you can then see your country...

Thanks for that! It correctly list my country ('Netherlands') and my
name.

Post by David Wade

Post by Frank Slootweg
[1] Strangely the 'HOME' address doesn't mention the country, only the
street address and city and shows a Google Maps picture of that
location.

I wonder if things work the other way round. It uses the Play Country to
set the country for the home address.

Maybe, but in the old days there was no Play Store / Google Play and
also now you can have a Google account without ever using the Play Store/
Google Play, so I think you 'HOME' address is set in the Google account,
not in the Play Store part of your account.

[Marion]

Post by Frank Slootweg
Maybe, but in the old days there was no Play Store / Google Play and
also now you can have a Google account without ever using the Play Store/
Google Play, so I think you 'HOME' address is set in the Google account,
not in the Play Store part of your account.

This may be correct as some of us have had Google Accounts before Android.

I checked my wife's phone for you before I read further to see that you had
already found the Play Store Country to be the "Netherlands" in your app.

Did you notice a looooooong lag before it came back with that information
initially? I did. I think it was looking it up from the Google Account.

You make a good point that her country was likely set long ago, even before
she had an Android phone, by virtue of her having a Google Account.

Since I set up a Google Account in the days when invitations were
necessary, I probably also have a home country too, right?

Here's what I did to check it out:
a. I turned off VPN and opened my one non-hardened web browser
b. I logged into <https://myaccount.google.com>
c. At the bottom of the left side I hit "Payments & subscriptions"
d. But then it asked me to "Verify it's you" (where I don't want that)
e. Had I gone further, supposedly I'd then tap "Payment methods"
f. Then I'd tap "Settings" under the Payments section
g. Then under "Payments profile" I should see the registered country

Since I can't pay for anything on Google, and since I don't have a phone
associated with the account (as far as I'm aware), I was afraid to go
further. But for most of the people reading this, that shouldn't be an
issue for them.

If someone who has a Google Account can check this for us, that would help
us all to determine if the Google Account country and the Google Play Store
country are the same or not.

[Frank Slootweg]

Post by Marion

Post by Frank Slootweg
Maybe, but in the old days there was no Play Store / Google Play and
also now you can have a Google account without ever using the Play Store/
Google Play, so I think you 'HOME' address is set in the Google account,
not in the Play Store part of your account.

This may be correct as some of us have had Google Accounts before Android.
I checked my wife's phone for you before I read further to see that you had
already found the Play Store Country to be the "Netherlands" in your app.
Did you notice a looooooong lag before it came back with that information
initially? I did. I think it was looking it up from the Google Account.
You make a good point that her country was likely set long ago, even before
she had an Android phone, by virtue of her having a Google Account.
Since I set up a Google Account in the days when invitations were
necessary, I probably also have a home country too, right?
a. I turned off VPN and opened my one non-hardened web browser
b. I logged into <https://myaccount.google.com>
c. At the bottom of the left side I hit "Payments & subscriptions"
d. But then it asked me to "Verify it's you" (where I don't want that)
e. Had I gone further, supposedly I'd then tap "Payment methods"
f. Then I'd tap "Settings" under the Payments section
g. Then under "Payments profile" I should see the registered country
Since I can't pay for anything on Google, and since I don't have a phone
associated with the account (as far as I'm aware), I was afraid to go
further. But for most of the people reading this, that shouldn't be an
issue for them.
If someone who has a Google Account can check this for us, that would help
us all to determine if the Google Account country and the Google Play Store
country are the same or not.

On the 'Payment methods' page, it only lists my credit card (brand,
last four digits of the number and the expiry date). But if I click the
'Edit' button, it shows my name and my 'HOME' address, but again without
the country and in this case without a map of the location. (While this
is a laptop, i.e. no GPS, Google *Maps* knows how to show my location,
so no idea, why it doesn't show it here.)

So for me, the Google Account country and the Google Play Store
country *are* the same, as is to be expected.

BTW, the direct URL for the 'Payment methods' page is
<https://payments.google.com/gp/w/u/0/home/paymentmethods>

The 'Payment methods' page also has an 'Addresses' tab, which
(indirectly) links to the 'Other addresses' page
<https://myaccount.google.com/addressbook>

That page lists:

- 'Legal address', which is name, address *and* country.
I have multiple entries here, including one of relatives in Australia.
No idea why that one is there. The other ones are (same-spelled)
duplicates and a duplicate without my name. Clicking on the
duplicates, I see that they differ in yes/no phone number and have a
different date.

- 'Profile addresses' ("You can make these visible to others across
Google apps and services").
This has my name, no 'Profile picture', Gender, Birthday, only my
email address as 'Contact info', no 'About' info and no 'Work &
Education' info.
I obviously limited this info to the sensible bare minimum.

- 'Billing addresses'.
Links back to the 'Payment methods' page.

Hope this helps.

[Marion]

Post by Frank Slootweg
And thanks for the warning. You can't only end up with the wrong
country, but also with the wrong currency (for the correct country and
vice versa). Been there, done that, got the T-shirt (which I had to pay
in Australian dollars instead of in Euros).
Sadly the webpage only talks about changing your 'Google Play country',
but not how to check what it's currently set to.
It's reasonable to assume it's the same as the country of the 'HOME'
address of your account [1].
[1] Strangely the 'HOME' address doesn't mention the country, only the
street address and city and shows a Google Maps picture of that
location.

Thanks for that update & subsequent question of how to tell the country.

I just checked my wife's Android because I don't have the Google Play Store
app on my phone, where her app says her country is the "United States".

Here's what I did:
a. It took me a while to *find* her Google Play Store app to open it
(I could never teach my wife or kids to be organized on a phone!)
b. Inside the app, at the top right, I pressed her profile icon
c. I selected Settings from the bottom of the resulting menu
d. Then General from the top of the next resulting menu
e. The second item down has a subset of "Account, country, & history"
f. When I hit that second item, it took a long while to come back
(which indicates you need Internet access for it to do a lookup)
g. In the middle it says her full (real!) name & "United States"

The weird thing is it worked differently the *second* time I did it.
I did it a second time so that I could write up the steps for you above.

So I "think" it's not normally populated inside the Google Play Store app.
I "think" it populated only after doublechecking with Google over the net.

It does say under "United States" the warning not to change the country
unless you are moving to that country, but it doesn't explain why.

It would be interesting to see what people in Europe & the UK see.

[Frank Slootweg]

Post by Marion

Post by Frank Slootweg
And thanks for the warning. You can't only end up with the wrong
country, but also with the wrong currency (for the correct country and
vice versa). Been there, done that, got the T-shirt (which I had to pay
in Australian dollars instead of in Euros).
Sadly the webpage only talks about changing your 'Google Play country',
but not how to check what it's currently set to.
It's reasonable to assume it's the same as the country of the 'HOME'
address of your account [1].
[1] Strangely the 'HOME' address doesn't mention the country, only the
street address and city and shows a Google Maps picture of that
location.

Thanks for that update & subsequent question of how to tell the country.
I just checked my wife's Android because I don't have the Google Play Store
app on my phone, where her app says her country is the "United States".
a. It took me a while to *find* her Google Play Store app to open it
(I could never teach my wife or kids to be organized on a phone!)
b. Inside the app, at the top right, I pressed her profile icon
c. I selected Settings from the bottom of the resulting menu
d. Then General from the top of the next resulting menu
e. The second item down has a subset of "Account, country, & history"
f. When I hit that second item, it took a long while to come back
(which indicates you need Internet access for it to do a lookup)
g. In the middle it says her full (real!) name & "United States"
The weird thing is it worked differently the *second* time I did it.
I did it a second time so that I could write up the steps for you above.
So I "think" it's not normally populated inside the Google Play Store app.
I "think" it populated only after doublechecking with Google over the net.
It does say under "United States" the warning not to change the country
unless you are moving to that country, but it doesn't explain why.
It would be interesting to see what people in Europe & the UK see.

For me in The Netherlands - a EU/EEA country -:

Below 'Netherlands' and my name, there first is a comment about EEA
countries, basically saying that you can only purchase and download
(geofenced) for your own country, but you can browse content from other
EEA countries if you use the Google Play website while not logged in.

After this comment, there is the warning you mention but with a 'Learn
more' link to the 'How to change your Google Play country' webpage.
Don't you get that link?

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Marion
It does say under "United States" the warning not to change the country
unless you are moving to that country, but it doesn't explain why.

Probably related to what you said before: «Warning: There is a waiting
period, and it's long (12 months!) before you can change it again, so
don't change it lightly!»

[Marion]

Post by Marion
It does say under "United States" the warning not to change the country
unless you are moving to that country, but it doesn't explain why.

Probably related to what you said before: �Warning: There is a waiting
period, and it's long (12 months!) before you can change it again, so
don't change it lightly!

Yup. Agree. Almost certainly the warning is the long waiting period.

In summary, it seems Frank found two ways (at least) to check his country,
one being from the Google Play Store app and the other being from the
Google Accounts web page using the links that Frank kindly supplied.

I don't get a chance to use my wife's phone all that much as she thinks
every time it doesn't work, that I "did something" to it, so I'll let those
with a Google Account test further as I have the irresistible itchy urge to
add the 1:1 replacement apps every time I touch *anyone's* Android phone!

The Dirty Dozen:
1. Google Play Store client ==> Aurora GPS client
<https://gitlab.com/AuroraOSS/AuroraStore/-/releases>
2. Google Play Store search engine ==> Skyica GSP search engine
<https://skyica.com/appfinder/get/>
3. Android App Drawer ==> Muntashirakon App Manager
<https://github.com/MuntashirAkon/AppManager> (apk)
<https://muntashirakon.github.io/AppManager/vi/> (doc)
4. Google YouTube client ==> Newpipe youtube client
<https://newpipe.net>
5. Google Chrome web browser ==> Bromite web browser
<https://www.bromite.org/>
<https://github.com/bromite/bromite/releases>
<https://www.bromite.org/fdroid>
6. Google GBoard keyboard ==> OpenBoard keyboard or HeliBoard keyboard
<https://github.com/openboard-team/openboard>
<https://github.com/Helium314/HeliBoard>
7. Google Contacts ==> OpenContacts
<https://f-droid.org/en/packages/opencontacts.open.com.opencontacts/>
8. Google GMail client (MUA) ==> FairEmail client (MUA) or K9 Mail
<https://email.faircode.eu/>
<https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/releases>
<https://f-droid.org/en/packages/eu.faircode.email/>
<https://k9mail.app/>
<https://f-droid.org/packages/com.fsck.k9/>
<https://github.com/thundernest/k-9/releases>
9. Google Calendar ==> Etar calendar
<https://github.com/Etar-Group/Etar-Calendar>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ws.xsoh.etar>
<https://f-droid.org/packages/ws.xsoh.etar/>
10. Google Messenger SMS/MMS ==> Pulse SMS free version
(Pulse SMS 5.4.6.2816 by Luke & Jake Klinker - last known good version)
<https://mobile.softpedia.com/apk/pulse/5.6.4.2880/>
11. NetGuard Firewall
<https://netguard.me/>
<https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard/releases>
12. Pixel Launcher or Samsung One UI Home launcher ==> Nova free launcher
(Nova Launcher 7.0.57 by TeslaCoil Apps - last known good version)
<https://mobile.softpedia.com/apk/nova-launcher/7.0.57/>
<https://filehippo.com/android/download_nova-launcher/7.0.57/>

Back to the tangent of the Google Home Country & the Aurora Google Play
Store replacement app, I suppose the answer is Aurora doesn't help, right?

If that's the consensus, I'll send an email to the Aurora team as I've
worked with them in the past to get them to add Skyica to their tool.

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by Marion
I just checked my wife's Android because I don't have the Google Play Store
app on my phone, where her app says her country is the "United States".
a. It took me a while to *find* her Google Play Store app to open it
  (I could never teach my wife or kids to be organized on a phone!)
b. Inside the app, at the top right, I pressed her profile icon
c. I selected Settings from the bottom of the resulting menu
d. Then General from the top of the next resulting menu
e. The second item down has a subset of "Account, country, & history"
f. When I hit that second item, it took a long while to come back   (which
indicates you need Internet access for it to do a lookup)
g. In the middle it says her full (real!) name & "United States"
It would be interesting to see what people in Europe & the UK see.

With mobile data and wifi off, I see "Exception in CronetUrlRequest"
With wifi but no data I get a "wait" icon, for several minutes.
Go back and select 'Account and device preferences' again:
Country and profiles is not selectable
Option to "Switch to the United Kingdom Play Store."

So possibly Google looked at my ISP to pick a country, and has nothing
saved, and can't manage exception handling / testing. Eroski Supermercados
"isn't available on Goggle Play in your Region"

(The Google account on that phone is only used to enable Play Store, and
had minimal information entered after buying the phone).

[David Wade]

Post by Marion
I just checked my wife's Android because I don't have the Google Play Store
app on my phone, where her app says her country is the "United States".
a. It took me a while to *find* her Google Play Store app to open it
   (I could never teach my wife or kids to be organized on a phone!)
b. Inside the app, at the top right, I pressed her profile icon
c. I selected Settings from the bottom of the resulting menu
d. Then General from the top of the next resulting menu
e. The second item down has a subset of "Account, country, & history"
f. When I hit that second item, it took a long while to come back
(which indicates you need Internet access for it to do a lookup)
g. In the middle it says her full (real!) name & "United States"
It would be interesting to see what people in Europe & the UK see.

 With mobile data and wifi off, I see "Exception in CronetUrlRequest"
With wifi but no data I get a "wait" icon, for several minutes.
 Country and profiles is not selectable
 Option to "Switch to the United Kingdom Play Store."
 So possibly Google looked at my ISP to pick a country, and has nothing
saved, and can't manage exception handling / testing. Eroski
Supermercados "isn't available on Goggle Play in your Region"
 (The Google account on that phone is only used to enable Play Store,
and had minimal information entered after buying the phone).

So when in the UK, vi WiFi, If I look at my Spanish account it has:-

Spain
"Dave Wade"

and of course "Dave" is not what is in my passport, driving licence or
Spanish Tax records. It also gives me the option to switch to the UK
play Store...

If switch to my UK account it says

"United Kingdom"
"Mr. D. Wade"

If I remember, next time I go to Spain I will see what happens.

.. reminds me that for many years my Microsoft Certifications had "Dave
Wade" on them as that matched my company ID card. This was OK until
Microsoft switched to wanting official government IDs to sit exams...

Dave
G4UGM
p.s. note my full name is in the headers so I don't think much exposed
by quoting here. If you didn't know it googling G4UGM would probably
reveal it and much more info, whereas there are several "Dave Wades"...

[Marion]

Post by Jeff Layman
Unfortunately, most people have a Google account and automatically log
on when they get a new phone (if for no other reason than to transfer
all their old phone info to the new one via a Google backup).

Hi Jeff,

You taught me a lot in the past, and below, I see you taught me more.
That's good as we can each learn from others so we know everything we can.

I've asked why people put a Google Account on the phone in the past, and
mostly I get two answers, neither of which is what I'd do but I understand.

a. Most people just don't think - they don't both to hit the "skip" option
b. Some people want the "convenience" of being 24/7/365 connected to Google

I get it. But then those people should never complain that they "can't"
have privacy. It's ok for them to complain that they "don't" have privacy.

But "can't" is very different from "don't".

Me?
I can have privacy from Google in terms of what this thread is about.
I don't have a Google Account set up on my phone.

If there's anything other people can do with that Google Account set up on
the phone that I can't do without that account being set up, let me know.

Note: Having a Google Account & having it set up on the phone are different
things that a lot of people seem to thing are the same - but they're not.

You can still get all the apps off of the Google Play Store repo without a
Google Account set up on the phone, just like you can get all your Google
Mail you want without an account on the phone, just like YouTube, etc.

Post by Jeff Layman
If you want to be free from Google, probably the way to go is Sailfish,
Pure, or Pine.

I think the *simplest* way to be "free from Google" is to hit the "skip"
button when you set up a phone, or, hit the "delete" button in settings.

However, to address "Sailfish", "Pure" & "Pine", looking them up, is this a
good characterization of what they are in terms of what you're suggesting?

Sailfish OS:
A Linux-based OS developed by Jolla that runs only some Android apps.

PureOS:
A Debian-based privacy OS developed by Purism that runs its own apps only.

PinePhone:
An open phone developed by Pine64 that runs Sailfish OS (& other OS's).

Thanks for bringing them up, but as with those who say "there is no
privacy" on Android who also have a Google Account set up on Android,
naturally I disagree that we have to go "that far" to get some privacy.

[Jeff Layman]

Post by Marion

Post by Jeff Layman
Unfortunately, most people have a Google account and automatically log
on when they get a new phone (if for no other reason than to transfer
all their old phone info to the new one via a Google backup).

Hi Jeff,
You taught me a lot in the past, and below, I see you taught me more.
That's good as we can each learn from others so we know everything we can.

I only know what I can read from an internet search!

Post by Marion
I've asked why people put a Google Account on the phone in the past, and
mostly I get two answers, neither of which is what I'd do but I understand.
a. Most people just don't think - they don't both to hit the "skip" option

When I got my Android phones I didn't know any better (although it's not
/my/ Google account being used with the phones - I don't have an
account). I think most users don't know any better. I soon realised that
I shouldn't use the phone for anything that required privacy. I've never
used it to buy anything or use a banking app, etc.

Post by Marion
b. Some people want the "convenience" of being 24/7/365 connected to Google
I get it. But then those people should never complain that they "can't"
have privacy. It's ok for them to complain that they "don't" have privacy.
But "can't" is very different from "don't".
Me?
I can have privacy from Google in terms of what this thread is about.
I don't have a Google Account set up on my phone.
If there's anything other people can do with that Google Account set up on
the phone that I can't do without that account being set up, let me know.
Note: Having a Google Account & having it set up on the phone are different
things that a lot of people seem to thing are the same - but they're not.

Well, yes, but I wonder, for example, if using something like a gmail
account would be enough to identify that person as a Google account
holder even if that Google account isn't specifically used with the
phone, only the gmail account.

Post by Marion
You can still get all the apps off of the Google Play Store repo without a
Google Account set up on the phone, just like you can get all your Google
Mail you want without an account on the phone, just like YouTube, etc.

Post by Jeff Layman
If you want to be free from Google, probably the way to go is Sailfish,
Pure, or Pine.

I think the *simplest* way to be "free from Google" is to hit the "skip"
button when you set up a phone, or, hit the "delete" button in settings.

Even when using GrapheneOS, LineageOS, etc can you be /certain/ you're
free of Google's tentacles? See my other reply to you in the thread
concerning showcase.apk backdoor. Yes, I see that Graphene OS has
covered this (see
<https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/14984-is-grapheneos-an-answer-to-recent-wired-headline-about-showcaseapk/12>),and
have tended to debunk it as an issue as physical access is (probably)
required to turn it on but there are still unanswered questions, such as
what /else/ might be there?

Post by Marion
However, to address "Sailfish", "Pure" & "Pine", looking them up, is this a
good characterization of what they are in terms of what you're suggesting?
A Linux-based OS developed by Jolla that runs only some Android apps.
A Debian-based privacy OS developed by Purism that runs its own apps only.
An open phone developed by Pine64 that runs Sailfish OS (& other OS's).

Basically they are all Linux-based OSs (as, up to a point, is Android
itself!). Whether or not any prospective user is going to accept a lower
level of usability for a higher price is a something only they can answer.

Post by Marion
Thanks for bringing them up, but as with those who say "there is no
privacy" on Android who also have a Google Account set up on Android,
naturally I disagree that we have to go "that far" to get some privacy.

Every bit of privacy helps, but the only way to be fairly sure is to use
a non-Android based OS.

[Marion]

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Marion
a. Most people just don't think - they don't both to hit the "skip" option

When I got my Android phones I didn't know any better (although it's not
/my/ Google account being used with the phones - I don't have an
account). I think most users don't know any better. I soon realised that
I shouldn't use the phone for anything that required privacy. I've never
used it to buy anything or use a banking app, etc.

Hi Jeff,
Yup. Most people do whatever marketing tells them to do.

In the case of setting up a device, they do whatever Google (or Apple)
marketing tells them to do, which is in the interest of Google & Apple.

But not them.
Me? I hit the 'skip' button during setup.
It's that easy (even on iOS, but Apple is a different beast altogether).

I'm fine with people who do not hit the skip button; I am just annoyed when
they claim they "can't" have privacy. They should say they "don't" instead.

A huge amount of privacy is gained simply by hitting that "skip" button.
For example, it appears the DSID cookie is useless w/o an account set up.

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Marion
Note: Having a Google Account & having it set up on the phone are different
things that a lot of people seem to thing are the same - but they're not.

Well, yes, but I wonder, for example, if using something like a gmail
account would be enough to identify that person as a Google account
holder even if that Google account isn't specifically used with the
phone, only the gmail account.

Heh heh heh... We've covered that situation in gory detail quite a few
times on this newsgroup. The short summary is that certain Google apps will
automatically set a Google account on the phone, Gmail being one of them.

But you can use any other mail user agent than the GMail app to get mail.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.faircode.email>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.fsck.k9>

Offhand, only the Google Voice & the GMail apps create that setup account.
Most people would never know this. But most people don't think.

Because most people don't think, they don't know anything about Google.
And then they erroneously claim you "can't" have privacy from Google.

That's always my point. They can have privacy. But they have to think.
The DSID cookie, as far as I can tell, is inactive without that account.

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Marion
You can still get all the apps off of the Google Play Store repo without a
Google Account set up on the phone, just like you can get all your Google
Mail you want without an account on the phone, just like YouTube, etc.

Post by Jeff Layman
If you want to be free from Google, probably the way to go is Sailfish,
Pure, or Pine.

I think the *simplest* way to be "free from Google" is to hit the "skip"
button when you set up a phone, or, hit the "delete" button in settings.

Even when using GrapheneOS, LineageOS, etc can you be /certain/ you're
free of Google's tentacles? See my other reply to you in the thread
concerning showcase.apk backdoor. Yes, I see that Graphene OS has
covered this (see
<https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/14984-is-grapheneos-an-answer-to-recent-wired-headline-about-showcaseapk/12>),and
have tended to debunk it as an issue as physical access is (probably)
required to turn it on but there are still unanswered questions, such as
what /else/ might be there?

I don't disagree that the only way to be "sure" of being free of Google is
to use some other operating system than one based on Android.

But I'm not the person to ascertain that. All I can do is divorce from
Google in the most obvious ways (e.g., hit the "skip" button).

Also I strive to not install any apps that have GSF incorporated into them.
This is easy with the free Google Play Store replacement apps like Aurora.

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Marion
However, to address "Sailfish", "Pure" & "Pine", looking them up, is this a
good characterization of what they are in terms of what you're suggesting?

Basically they are all Linux-based OSs (as, up to a point, is Android
itself!). Whether or not any prospective user is going to accept a lower
level of usability for a higher price is a something only they can answer.

Understood. The beauty of Android are the free apps. These linux-based
distros don't have the plethora of free app functionality of Android.

I love Android, even though I have plenty of iOS devices; the vast
availability of the free functionality on Android is impressive indeed.

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Marion
Thanks for bringing them up, but as with those who say "there is no
privacy" on Android who also have a Google Account set up on Android,
naturally I disagree that we have to go "that far" to get some privacy.

Every bit of privacy helps, but the only way to be fairly sure is to use
a non-Android based OS.

Understood. And agreed. But... we don't have to have "perfect" privacy. :)

IMHO, anyone who doesn't hit the "skip" button isn't qualified to talk
about privacy since they won't even do the minimum to obtain that privacy.

Notice the "theme" I'm proposing which is that people "complain" about lack
of privacy, but they don't actually do anything about it.

They don't even hit the "skip" button, which is shockingly trivial to do.
So they do NOTHING about privacy except complain that it bothers them.

In a way, it's like the weather. :)

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Jeff Layman
Unfortunately, most people have a Google account and automatically log
on when they get a new phone (if for no other reason than to transfer
all their old phone info to the new one via a Google backup).

One of the extremely annoying things I have found is linking of one's
Gmail contacts to one's phone contacts. I don't like my phone contacts
list being filled with people I am never likey to phone because I
don't have phone numbers for them, only email addresses. So I delete
them from my phone, and then when I want to email them from my
computer I find their addreswses gone -- one reason why I hardly ever
use Gmail any more, other than to give an address to people who want
to spam me.

[David Wade]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Jeff Layman
Unfortunately, most people have a Google account and automatically log
on when they get a new phone (if for no other reason than to transfer
all their old phone info to the new one via a Google backup).

One of the extremely annoying things I have found is linking of one's
Gmail contacts to one's phone contacts. I don't like my phone contacts
list being filled with people I am never likey to phone because I
don't have phone numbers for them, only email addresses. So I delete
them from my phone, and then when I want to email them from my
computer I find their addreswses gone -- one reason why I hardly ever
use Gmail any more, other than to give an address to people who want
to spam me.

This annoyed me for a while, but I have got over it now. What does annoy
me is the fact that I know multiple people called "David Thomas" and it
keeps wanting merge them....

Dave

[Nick Cine]

Post by Marion
"The DSID cookie is "almost certainly" the primary method Google
uses to link analytics and advertising events, such as ad clicks,
to individual users, Leith writes in his paper"
� <https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs/cookies_identifiers_and_other_data.pdf>

The DSID cookie's primary function is to track signed-in Google users for
ad personalization. Without a Google account actively logged in on the
device, there's no user identity for the cookie to associate with.
https://policies.google.com/technologies/cookies?hl=en-US#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20the%20'DSID',personalization%20setting%20is%20respected%20accordingly.'

Without a Google account on the phone, while Google may still gather some
generic data (e.g., device identifiers & network information) for basic
analytics and service functionality, the DSID cookie's personalized
tracking capabilities are effectively disabled.

If you use a web browser on your Android device, websites (including those
with Google ads) might still attempt to set cookies. However, without a
Google account logged into that browser, the DSID cookie won't link your
browsing activity to a specific Google user profile.

If you use applications that rely on googles advertising framework, some
data may still be collected, but it will be far less than if a google
account was associated with the device.

In essence, without a Google account, the DSID cookie becomes largely
inert. It cannot perform its intended purpose of personalized user
tracking.

[Hank]

Post by Nick Cine
The DSID cookie's primary function is to track signed-in Google users for
ad personalization. Without a Google account actively logged in on the
device, there's no user identity for the cookie to associate with.

It's as simple as this. No Google account in the setup = no tracking

You can still have Google accounts. Just don't set them as a default.