Discussion:
RCS is not more private and secure than texting according to the FBI
(too old to reply)
Jörg Lorenz
2024-12-17 06:19:32 UTC
Permalink
Avoid to use RCS! It is not what it seems and it is insecure and does
not respect your privacy. Elements that could make is safer are
proprietary Google stuff.

This is an advice from the FBI.


By Jerry Hildenbrand
published 3 days ago

https://www.androidcentral.com/apps-software/fbi-warns-about-ios-android-messaging-security-threat-and-im-not-surprised?

Texting still isn't safe.

Normally, I'm quick to point out all the ways that Google shows a lack
of respect for users inside its ecosystem. That's part of my job; if a
Google exec scratches his or her butt, I need to see how it affects
Google's portfolio and us since we're the ones using these products.

That means I rarely worry about what other companies, like Apple, do to
their users. This time is different because Apple's disdain for
consumers and lack of cooperation puts us all at risk, according to the
FBI, which usually knows what it is doing.

I'm talking about RCS. Of course, I'm talking about RCS because it's
been at least a month since I had to talk about RCS.

Here's the deal: if you use an iPhone and message someone else who is
using an iPhone, you're good. If you use an Android phone and message
someone else using an Android phone, you're good, too. The problem is
when an iPhone user messages an Android user or an Android user messages
an iPhone user.

Those messages, using the default messages app built into the phone, are
no more secure than the old way of sending a text was. Apple did
incorporate RCS messaging into iMessage, but it did it in a way that's
not secure and didn't work with Google to sort it out.

This happened because of RCS itself. The tech, in its current form,
doesn't support any sort of encryption yet. It's being worked on, but if
you implement RCS using only the current open standards, messages are no
safer than they used to be.

On the other hand, Google does offer encrypted RCS messaging — but only
between two Android phones or the Chrome browser tied to an Android
phone. It added this itself because RCS has no encryption method in place.

Since about 80% of people worldwide who use a smartphone are using an
Android smartphone, this was one of those times when Google did the
right thing. Apple didn't. Apple offers iPhone users who talk to other
iPhone users encryption and tells everyone else to just buy an iPhone.

The FBI piping in to let everyone know there is a problem isn't
unexpected. In fact, it's the opposite, and I'm surprised it took so
long. I assumed exploits would pop up during the first week, just like
spam and phishing messages supposedly from the post office did. You
(probably) aren't special, and nobody is actively trying to steal your
identity and hack your credit cards; they're just trying to steal
everyone's identity and get everyone's credit card info. Casting a huge
net is an easy way to scam regular people out of millions each year.

Apple and Google could have, and should have, prevented this. Instead,
Google was worried about tossing barbs at Apple and then taking a
victory lap even when it didn't really get what it was demanding.
Meanwhile, Apple trudged along and did nothing until China said they had
to add RCS capabilities. Apple will always try to appease China when
it's easy to do it, just like Google would. Neither side cared about
working together to help consumers like us because we were going to buy
their shit anyway. 💰🐄

So what should you do? If you live outside the U.S. or Canada, you
probably don't have to do anything because you likely don't even use
Google Messages or iMessage. People here use them because texts are
free, and, well, we just do.

If you use either, you should stop and switch to a secure and encrypted
platform like the FBI says. There are plenty, but I'm partial to Signal
because the people behind it only care about making a secure messaging
service; they want to hook you on their product by making it great and
not tying it to another service or looking to sell it off to Meta.

That's easier said than done. You could go through all of your contacts
and ask them to switch to another platform, but they're not going to do
it. They don't think they need to do it because they might not have
thousands in the bank sitting around ripe for the taking, or they don't
think they have anything to hide.

All you really can do is refuse to send any information through Google
Messages or iMessage that you don't want the world to read and wish the
companies that made these things actually cared about their users.
--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)
badgolferman
2024-12-17 10:14:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Avoid to use RCS! It is not what it seems and it is insecure and does
not respect your privacy. Elements that could make is safer are
proprietary Google stuff.
This is an advice from the FBI.
By Jerry Hildenbrand
published 3 days ago
https://www.androidcentral.com/apps-software/fbi-warns-about-ios-android-messaging-security-threat-and-im-not-surprised?
Texting still isn't safe.
Normally, I'm quick to point out all the ways that Google shows a lack
of respect for users inside its ecosystem. That's part of my job; if a
Google exec scratches his or her butt, I need to see how it affects
Google's portfolio and us since we're the ones using these products.
That means I rarely worry about what other companies, like Apple, do to
their users. This time is different because Apple's disdain for
consumers and lack of cooperation puts us all at risk, according to the
FBI, which usually knows what it is doing.
I'm talking about RCS. Of course, I'm talking about RCS because it's
been at least a month since I had to talk about RCS.
Here's the deal: if you use an iPhone and message someone else who is
using an iPhone, you're good. If you use an Android phone and message
someone else using an Android phone, you're good, too. The problem is
when an iPhone user messages an Android user or an Android user messages
an iPhone user.
Those messages, using the default messages app built into the phone, are
no more secure than the old way of sending a text was. Apple did
incorporate RCS messaging into iMessage, but it did it in a way that's
not secure and didn't work with Google to sort it out.
This happened because of RCS itself. The tech, in its current form,
doesn't support any sort of encryption yet. It's being worked on, but if
you implement RCS using only the current open standards, messages are no
safer than they used to be.
On the other hand, Google does offer encrypted RCS messaging — but only
between two Android phones or the Chrome browser tied to an Android
phone. It added this itself because RCS has no encryption method in place.
Since about 80% of people worldwide who use a smartphone are using an
Android smartphone, this was one of those times when Google did the
right thing. Apple didn't. Apple offers iPhone users who talk to other
iPhone users encryption and tells everyone else to just buy an iPhone.
The FBI piping in to let everyone know there is a problem isn't
unexpected. In fact, it's the opposite, and I'm surprised it took so
long. I assumed exploits would pop up during the first week, just like
spam and phishing messages supposedly from the post office did. You
(probably) aren't special, and nobody is actively trying to steal your
identity and hack your credit cards; they're just trying to steal
everyone's identity and get everyone's credit card info. Casting a huge
net is an easy way to scam regular people out of millions each year.
Apple and Google could have, and should have, prevented this. Instead,
Google was worried about tossing barbs at Apple and then taking a
victory lap even when it didn't really get what it was demanding.
Meanwhile, Apple trudged along and did nothing until China said they had
to add RCS capabilities. Apple will always try to appease China when
it's easy to do it, just like Google would. Neither side cared about
working together to help consumers like us because we were going to buy
their shit anyway. 💰🐄
So what should you do? If you live outside the U.S. or Canada, you
probably don't have to do anything because you likely don't even use
Google Messages or iMessage. People here use them because texts are
free, and, well, we just do.
If you use either, you should stop and switch to a secure and encrypted
platform like the FBI says. There are plenty, but I'm partial to Signal
because the people behind it only care about making a secure messaging
service; they want to hook you on their product by making it great and
not tying it to another service or looking to sell it off to Meta.
That's easier said than done. You could go through all of your contacts
and ask them to switch to another platform, but they're not going to do
it. They don't think they need to do it because they might not have
thousands in the bank sitting around ripe for the taking, or they don't
think they have anything to hide.
All you really can do is refuse to send any information through Google
Messages or iMessage that you don't want the world to read and wish the
companies that made these things actually cared about their users.
Considering the only other option is to use SMS there is no other option. I
cannot tell another user to install a third party messaging app like
WhatsApp or Signal otherwise they won’t receive messages from me.

In this case both Apple and Google are at fault because neither will
compromise for the good of the consumer. They are trying to protect their
own kingdoms.
Andy Burns
2024-12-17 10:31:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
void to use RCS! It is not what it seems
I thought we already knew that cross-ecosystem was not encrypted?
Jörg Lorenz
2024-12-17 13:00:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Jörg Lorenz
void to use RCS! It is not what it seems
I thought we already knew that cross-ecosystem was not encrypted?
There is a lot more behind it.
--
"Gutta cavat lapidem." (Ovid)
Jan K.
2024-12-17 22:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Jörg Lorenz
void to use RCS! It is not what it seems
I thought we already knew that cross-ecosystem was not encrypted?
There is a lot more behind it.
Luckily for everyone, Jorg Lornz is just the right person to explain
everything technical that you need to know about message encryption.

Jorg: Please explain to everyone here what you know about this topic.
badgolferman
2024-12-17 22:58:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan K.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Jörg Lorenz
void to use RCS! It is not what it seems
I thought we already knew that cross-ecosystem was not encrypted?
There is a lot more behind it.
Luckily for everyone, Jorg Lornz is just the right person to explain
everything technical that you need to know about message encryption.
Jorg: Please explain to everyone here what you know about this topic.
LOL!!
s|b
2024-12-22 15:46:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
I thought we already knew that cross-ecosystem was not encrypted?
No worries then. (Reading this from comp.mobile.android.)
--
s|b
Carlos E.R.
2024-12-17 14:08:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Avoid to use RCS!
If an iPhone is involved. It's fine on Android. The article you posted
says so.

And we knew this.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
It is not what it seems and it is insecure and does
not respect your privacy. Elements that could make is safer are
proprietary Google stuff.
This is an advice from the FBI.
By Jerry Hildenbrand
published 3 days ago
https://www.androidcentral.com/apps-software/fbi-warns-about-ios-android-messaging-security-threat-and-im-not-surprised?
...
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Jörg Lorenz
2024-12-17 15:58:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Avoid to use RCS!
If an iPhone is involved. It's fine on Android. The article you posted
says so.
You do not understand what happens.
RCS is Google's wet dream. Nobody needs it or wants it.
--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)
badgolferman
2024-12-17 16:48:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Nobody needs it or wants it.
The ghost of nospam is alive!
Andrew
2024-12-17 23:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by badgolferman
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Nobody needs it or wants it.
The ghost of nospam is alive!
Hooray! The ghost of nospam has spoken!

If it's something that Apple doesn't make money on, then...
"nobody needs it" and "nobody wants it"

Maybe Joerg Lorenz picked up nospam's contract to make senseless and
literally inane excuses for why Apple products can't do what every other
similar product does (which is proof enough that people want it).
Carlos E.R.
2024-12-17 20:42:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Avoid to use RCS!
If an iPhone is involved. It's fine on Android. The article you posted
says so.
You do not understand what happens.
RCS is Google's wet dream. Nobody needs it or wants it.
We know you say that, and we also know this to be false. Don't worry
about it :-)
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Jörg Lorenz
2024-12-17 20:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Avoid to use RCS!
If an iPhone is involved. It's fine on Android. The article you posted
says so.
You do not understand what happens.
RCS is Google's wet dream. Nobody needs it or wants it.
We know you say that, and we also know this to be false. Don't worry
about it :-)
You comment is redundant. In this particular case the FBI is a lot more
trustworthy than you will ever be.
--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)
Carlos E.R.
2024-12-17 21:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Avoid to use RCS!
If an iPhone is involved. It's fine on Android. The article you posted
says so.
You do not understand what happens.
RCS is Google's wet dream. Nobody needs it or wants it.
We know you say that, and we also know this to be false. Don't worry
about it :-)
You comment is redundant. In this particular case the FBI is a lot more
trustworthy than you will ever be.
The FBI doesn't contradict me at all.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Jörg Lorenz
2024-12-17 21:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Avoid to use RCS!
If an iPhone is involved. It's fine on Android. The article you posted
says so.
You do not understand what happens.
RCS is Google's wet dream. Nobody needs it or wants it.
We know you say that, and we also know this to be false. Don't worry
about it :-)
You comment is redundant. In this particular case the FBI is a lot more
trustworthy than you will ever be.
The FBI doesn't contradict me at all.
They never will.
--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)
Frank Slootweg
2024-12-18 10:35:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Avoid to use RCS!
If an iPhone is involved. It's fine on Android. The article you posted
says so.
You do not understand what happens.
RCS is Google's wet dream. Nobody needs it or wants it.
We know you say that, and we also know this to be false. Don't worry
about it :-)
You comment is redundant. In this particular case the FBI is a lot more
trustworthy than you will ever be.
The FBI doesn't contradict me at all.
Of course they don't. After all, you didn't give them permission to
disagree with you, did you!?
Arno Welzel
2024-12-17 23:36:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Avoid to use RCS!
If an iPhone is involved. It's fine on Android. The article you posted
says so.
You do not understand what happens.
RCS is Google's wet dream. Nobody needs it or wants it.
RCS works fine - much better than MMS ever was. Google just added a
proprietary encryption to it.
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Carlos E.R.
2024-12-18 00:15:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Avoid to use RCS!
If an iPhone is involved. It's fine on Android. The article you posted
says so.
You do not understand what happens.
RCS is Google's wet dream. Nobody needs it or wants it.
RCS works fine - much better than MMS ever was. Google just added a
proprietary encryption to it.
Proprietary, maybe, but they did not block Apple from using it. It was
Apple who decided not even to try using it. Ok, it is not an standard,
but it exists, it is there, ready to use. Just use, then agree into an
standard, and implement it next.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Andrew
2024-12-18 01:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
If an iPhone is involved. It's fine on Android. The article you posted
says so.
You do not understand what happens.
RCS is Google's wet dream. Nobody needs it or wants it.
RCS works fine - much better than MMS ever was. Google just added a
proprietary encryption to it.
Proprietary, maybe, but they did not block Apple from using it. It was
Apple who decided not even to try using it. Ok, it is not an standard,
but it exists, it is there, ready to use. Just use, then agree into an
standard, and implement it next.
The only reason RCS is in iPhones is the EU demanded Apple add it.
RCS encryption isn't there only because the EU didn't demand that too.
Carlos E.R.
2024-12-18 07:37:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
If an iPhone is involved. It's fine on Android. The article you posted
says so.
You do not understand what happens.
RCS is Google's wet dream. Nobody needs it or wants it.
RCS works fine - much better than MMS ever was. Google just added a
proprietary encryption to it.
Proprietary, maybe, but they did not block Apple from using it. It was
Apple who decided not even to try using it. Ok, it is not an standard,
but it exists, it is there, ready to use. Just use, then agree into an
standard, and implement it next.
The only reason RCS is in iPhones is the EU demanded Apple add it.
RCS encryption isn't there only because the EU didn't demand that too.
The EU did not think Apple would be that stupid as to not implement it.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Andrew
2024-12-18 17:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Andrew
The only reason RCS is in iPhones is the EU demanded Apple add it.
RCS encryption isn't there only because the EU didn't demand that too.
The EU did not think Apple would be that stupid as to not implement it.
I agree with you and I disagree with Frank who had chastised you.

What appears to be transpiring are the following events:

1. Apple said in court the last thing they'll ever want to do
is to interoperate with Android. That's a fact, paraphrased.

2. The EU forced Apple to interoperate (a little bit) with Android.

3. Unfortunately, the EU didn't force Apple to handle encryption.

4. So nobody gets interoperability (with encryption) because
Apple execs decided interoperability is a threat to their profits.

5. And it is.

6. Meanwhile, most people are completely clueless that the problem is
that Apple has no intention of ever interoperating with Android.

7. Hence, the FBI warned people that, essentially, there is no
encryption when Apple messages are involved with Android devices.

The FBI doesn't take sides so they don't mention Apple is the problem.
But anyone with half a brain is well aware that Apple is the problem.
Alan
2024-12-18 18:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Andrew
The only reason RCS is in iPhones is the EU demanded Apple add it.
RCS encryption isn't there only because the EU didn't demand that too.
The EU did not think Apple would be that stupid as to not implement it.
I agree with you and I disagree with Frank who had chastised you.
1. Apple said in court the last thing they'll ever want to do
  is to interoperate with Android. That's a fact, paraphrased.
Then let's see the exact quote rather than your interpretation of it.
Carlos E.R.
2024-12-18 20:18:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Andrew
The only reason RCS is in iPhones is the EU demanded Apple add it.
RCS encryption isn't there only because the EU didn't demand that too.
The EU did not think Apple would be that stupid as to not implement it.
I agree with you and I disagree with Frank who had chastised you.
1. Apple said in court the last thing they'll ever want to do
  is to interoperate with Android. That's a fact, paraphrased.
2. The EU forced Apple to interoperate (a little bit) with Android.
3. Unfortunately, the EU didn't force Apple to handle encryption.
4. So nobody gets interoperability (with encryption) because   Apple
execs decided interoperability is a threat to their profits.
5. And it is.
6. Meanwhile, most people are completely clueless that the problem is
  that Apple has no intention of ever interoperating with Android.
7. Hence, the FBI warned people that, essentially, there is no
encryption when Apple messages are involved with Android devices.
The FBI doesn't take sides so they don't mention Apple is the problem.
But anyone with half a brain is well aware that Apple is the problem.
It is, however, reasonable for a company to say that they will only
implement the approved standard. However, I don't know for what reasons,
the standard will not be expanded for some reason I don't know, either
temporarily or permanently. That company should push hard for the
standard to expand. Maybe this can not be. And say clearly when the
standard is expected to be ready. IF.

In that case, said company should implement instead the existing
proprietary method, which perhaps, I do not know, has been offered free
of charge. Even as a temporary measure while the standard is developed,
for the benefit of all users.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Andrew
2024-12-19 02:56:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Andrew
The FBI doesn't take sides so they don't mention Apple is the problem.
But anyone with half a brain is well aware that Apple is the problem.
It is, however, reasonable for a company to say that they will only
implement the approved standard. However, I don't know for what reasons,
the standard will not be expanded for some reason I don't know, either
temporarily or permanently. That company should push hard for the
standard to expand. Maybe this can not be. And say clearly when the
standard is expected to be ready. IF.
In that case, said company should implement instead the existing
proprietary method, which perhaps, I do not know, has been offered free
of charge. Even as a temporary measure while the standard is developed,
for the benefit of all users.
We all know from Apple's history that the last thing Apple wants is
interoperability with other platforms (the proof is rampant everywhere).

We also all know Apple is being forced to care about the customer by EU
laws, where we all know Apple implements as little as it can get away with.

In addition, we all know the Epic deposition showcased Apple executives'
emails, which said that the messaging platform is one of the most critical
components of the walled garden that Apple does NOT want interoperable.

With all that in mind, we also all know Apple (and Google) are on the same
standards committee - where - we don't really know what goes on behind
those closed doors.

Is Apple stalling?
I don't know.

Does anyone have more data on what Apple's specific objections are?
Alan
2024-12-19 03:22:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Andrew
The FBI doesn't take sides so they don't mention Apple is the problem.
But anyone with half a brain is well aware that Apple is the problem.
It is, however, reasonable for a company to say that they will only
implement the approved standard. However, I don't know for what
reasons, the standard will not be expanded for some reason I don't
know, either temporarily or permanently. That company should push hard
for the standard to expand. Maybe this can not be. And say clearly
when the standard is expected to be ready. IF.
In that case, said company should implement instead the existing
proprietary method, which perhaps, I do not know, has been offered
free of charge. Even as a temporary measure while the standard is
developed, for the benefit of all users.
We all know from Apple's history that the last thing Apple wants is
interoperability with other platforms (the proof is rampant everywhere).
And yet you won't provide it.

Weird.
Post by Andrew
We also all know Apple is being forced to care about the customer by EU
laws, where we all know Apple implements as little as it can get away with.
In addition, we all know the Epic deposition showcased Apple executives'
emails, which said that the messaging platform is one of the most critical
components of the walled garden that Apple does NOT want interoperable.
With all that in mind, we also all know Apple (and Google) are on the same
standards committee - where - we don't really know what goes on behind
those closed doors.
Is Apple stalling?
I don't know.
And yet you'll claim they are.

Weird.
Arno Welzel
2024-12-20 09:46:28 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by Alan
Post by Andrew
We all know from Apple's history that the last thing Apple wants is
interoperability with other platforms (the proof is rampant everywhere).
And yet you won't provide it.
Weird.
Is iMessage or FaceTime available for Android or Windows or at least
compatible with anything else?
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Alan
2024-12-20 17:02:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
[...]
Post by Alan
Post by Andrew
We all know from Apple's history that the last thing Apple wants is
interoperability with other platforms (the proof is rampant everywhere).
And yet you won't provide it.
Weird.
Is iMessage or FaceTime available for Android or Windows or at least
compatible with anything else?
iMessage let's you send and receive SMS messages.
badgolferman
2024-12-20 17:30:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by Arno Welzel
Is iMessage or FaceTime available for Android or Windows or at least
compatible with anything else?
iMessage let's you send and receive SMS messages.
Not exactly. Messages app lets you send iMessages, SMS, RCS messages.
Alan
2024-12-20 17:51:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by badgolferman
Post by Alan
Post by Arno Welzel
Is iMessage or FaceTime available for Android or Windows or at least
compatible with anything else?
iMessage let's you send and receive SMS messages.
Not exactly. Messages app lets you send iMessages, SMS, RCS messages.
Yeah, yeah...

I used the wrong term.
Ant
2024-12-20 19:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by badgolferman
Post by Alan
Post by Arno Welzel
Is iMessage or FaceTime available for Android or Windows or at least
compatible with anything else?
iMessage let's you send and receive SMS messages.
Not exactly. Messages app lets you send iMessages, SMS, RCS messages.
RCS messages if using iOS v18 and higher. IIRC, the carriers must support RCS too.
--
"'Do not be afraid,' Samuel replied. 'You have done all this evil; yet do not turn away from the Lord, but serve the Lord with all your heart.'" --1 Samuel 12:20. Thank God 4 not going out 2day on a slammy Th.
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Arno Welzel
2024-12-21 16:00:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by Arno Welzel
[...]
Post by Alan
Post by Andrew
We all know from Apple's history that the last thing Apple wants is
interoperability with other platforms (the proof is rampant everywhere).
And yet you won't provide it.
Weird.
Is iMessage or FaceTime available for Android or Windows or at least
compatible with anything else?
iMessage let's you send and receive SMS messages.
I would not call this "compatible" since you can use it in the same way
as with other Apple users.
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Alan
2024-12-21 16:31:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Alan
Post by Arno Welzel
[...]
Post by Alan
Post by Andrew
We all know from Apple's history that the last thing Apple wants is
interoperability with other platforms (the proof is rampant everywhere).
And yet you won't provide it.
Weird.
Is iMessage or FaceTime available for Android or Windows or at least
compatible with anything else?
iMessage let's you send and receive SMS messages.
I would not call this "compatible" since you can use it in the same way
as with other Apple users.
Messages is compatible with any platform that sends and receives SMS
messages.
Arno Welzel
2024-12-24 03:01:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Alan
Post by Arno Welzel
[...]
Post by Alan
Post by Andrew
We all know from Apple's history that the last thing Apple wants is
interoperability with other platforms (the proof is rampant everywhere).
And yet you won't provide it.
Weird.
Is iMessage or FaceTime available for Android or Windows or at least
compatible with anything else?
iMessage let's you send and receive SMS messages.
I would not call this "compatible" since you can use it in the same way
as with other Apple users.
Messages is compatible with any platform that sends and receives SMS
messages.
Yes, it is able to send and receive SMS - nothing else. In this meaning,
iPhones are compatible to nearly every other computer or phone in the
world, since some kind of data exchange or phone calls is mostly possible.
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
badgolferman
2024-12-18 21:41:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
The FBI doesn't take sides so they don't mention Apple is the problem.
But anyone with half a brain is well aware that Apple is the problem.
In my opinion Apple would not lose customers if they made RCS
interoperability possible with Android. People buy Apple products not for
their messaging app, but for many other features. If Google and Apple could
agree on an encryption protocol — even temporarily — it would show goodwill
to all their customers.

Having said that, I’m glad Apple adopted some RCS functions. At least now I
can see when people have read my messages (if they’ve turned that feature
on) and reactions are now possible with my Android friends.
Andrew
2024-12-19 02:56:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by badgolferman
Post by Andrew
The FBI doesn't take sides so they don't mention Apple is the problem.
But anyone with half a brain is well aware that Apple is the problem.
In my opinion Apple would not lose customers if they made RCS
interoperability possible with Android. People buy Apple products not for
their messaging app, but for many other features.
Hi badgolferman,

I can speak with you normally, where I don't have to dumb down the message.

Knowing that Apple is one of the most brilliant marketing organizations in
the world, and assuming Apple legal must also be the best in the world, and
knowing that Apple only tells the truth in court, we can perhaps ascertain
Apple's true intentions by their own executives' emails deposed in the Epic
case.

We've discussed those very emails on this very newsgroup in gory detail, so
there's no need to repeat them other than to summarize that Apple considers
interoperability outside the walled garden to be a dire threat to profits.

And it is.

Since we discussed this many times, you're likely well aware those Apple
executives said in those published internal emails that the messaging app
allowed Apple to lock people into the walled garden ecosystem -
particularly - Apple execs stated - young impressionable kids whose parents
buy their iPhones for them and whose parents want to give the kids what
their peers ask them to have.

This is, almost certainly, why some of those impressionable kids make such
a big deal out of green/blue bubbles, where, ironically, these
non-technical kids are surprisingly clueless that a green bubble message
with Android RCS users means that the messaging is NOT encrypted.

If Google and Apple could
Post by badgolferman
agree on an encryption protocol - even temporarily - it would show goodwill
to all their customers.
It's not Google holding it up. It's Apple. (See above reason why.)
Remember, the executives publicly said interoperability petrified them.
Post by badgolferman
Having said that, I'm glad Apple adopted some RCS functions. At least now I
can see when people have read my messages (if they've turned that feature
on) and reactions are now possible with my Android friends.
+1. Agree. It's great that the EU is slowly forcing Apple to do things that
their customers want them to do but which Apple feels decreases profits.

The last thing Apple wants to do is interoperate with any other ecosystem.
Arno Welzel
2024-12-20 09:53:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by badgolferman
Post by Andrew
The FBI doesn't take sides so they don't mention Apple is the problem.
But anyone with half a brain is well aware that Apple is the problem.
In my opinion Apple would not lose customers if they made RCS
interoperability possible with Android. People buy Apple products not for
their messaging app, but for many other features. If Google and Apple could
agree on an encryption protocol — even temporarily — it would show goodwill
to all their customers.
On the other hand Apple customers don't care. They also don't care that
FaceTime is only possible with other Apple users. In the US iOS has a
market share of nearly 60% and the Android market share is declining slowly:

<https://explodingtopics.com/blog/iphone-android-users>

So in the US Apple is like Nokia was in the past. Yes, some people still
use Android devices, but not the majority. It's just the worldwide
market share where Android is still dominant because manufacturers can
offer much cheaper devices this way.
Post by badgolferman
Having said that, I’m glad Apple adopted some RCS functions. At least now I
can see when people have read my messages (if they’ve turned that feature
on) and reactions are now possible with my Android friends.
ACK - I hope one day RCS with encryption will be an official standard
and we can finally get rid of proprietary messengers.
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Andrew
2024-12-20 19:02:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
On the other hand Apple customers don't care. They also don't care that
FaceTime is only possible with other Apple users. In the US iOS has a
<https://explodingtopics.com/blog/iphone-android-users>
Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is overwhelmingly
Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which most
of the world may not necessarily have.

The fact Apple devices have the highest overall cost of ownership and the
least functionality also plays a role as only people in rich countries can
afford to buy back the functionality that Apple removes from their devices.
Post by Arno Welzel
So in the US Apple is like Nokia was in the past. Yes, some people still
use Android devices, but not the majority. It's just the worldwide
market share where Android is still dominant because manufacturers can
offer much cheaper devices this way.
In other words, Apple's strategy of designing the iPhone as a dumb terminal
which requires 24/7/365 Internet access to the "walled garden" coupled with
Apple's strategy of removing functionality so the user has to buy it back -
means only people in rich countries can afford such an abusive use model.
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by badgolferman
Having said that, I'm glad Apple adopted some RCS functions. At least now I
can see when people have read my messages (if they've turned that feature
on) and reactions are now possible with my Android friends.
ACK - I hope one day RCS with encryption will be an official standard
and we can finally get rid of proprietary messengers.
Everyone wants (except Apple) seamless messaging interoperability between
platforms (where Apple execs said they were "terrified" of that happening).
Alan
2024-12-20 19:15:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
On the other hand Apple customers don't care. They also don't care that
FaceTime is only possible with other Apple users. In the US iOS has a
<https://explodingtopics.com/blog/iphone-android-users>
Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is overwhelmingly
Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which most
of the world may not necessarily have.
For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to the
internet or not.
Ant
2024-12-20 19:17:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
On the other hand Apple customers don't care. They also don't care that
FaceTime is only possible with other Apple users. In the US iOS has a
<https://explodingtopics.com/blog/iphone-android-users>
Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is overwhelmingly
Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which most
of the world may not necessarily have.
For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to the
internet or not.
Ditto. I put mine offline when not needed.
--
"'Do not be afraid,' Samuel replied. 'You have done all this evil; yet do not turn away from the Lord, but serve the Lord with all your heart.'" --1 Samuel 12:20. Thank God 4 not going out 2day on a slammy Th.
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )
Andrew
2024-12-20 20:01:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ant
Post by Alan
For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to the
internet or not.
Ditto. I put mine offline when not needed.
The iPhone is a dumb terminal - devoid of functionality if you don't log
into the Apple mainframe servers 24/7/365 just for basic functionality.

The funny thing is Apple users are clueless that they are logging into
Apple's mainframe servers 24/7/365 for all those "walled garden" goodies.

Ant... could you do all of us a small favor before you respond please?

1. First, log out of iMessages, the App Store, FaceTime, iCloud, etc.
2. Then try to access all those "walled-garden" goodies you love.

Tell us all how well that works out for you please.
Thanks!
Alan
2024-12-20 21:54:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Ant
Post by Alan
For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to
the internet or not.
Ditto. I put mine offline when not needed.
The iPhone is a dumb terminal - devoid of functionality if you don't log
into the Apple mainframe servers 24/7/365 just for basic functionality.
This is completely false.
Arno Welzel
2024-12-21 16:04:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Ant
Post by Alan
For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to the
internet or not.
Ditto. I put mine offline when not needed.
The iPhone is a dumb terminal - devoid of functionality if you don't log
into the Apple mainframe servers 24/7/365 just for basic functionality.
I got an iPhone SE from my employer and can't reproduce this.

Even without internet and without connection to Apple it still works. I
can take pictures with it, listen to music which is stored on the device
and even call people if I only have GSM without internet.

So what exactly do you mean?
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Andrew
2024-12-21 21:10:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Andrew
The iPhone is a dumb terminal - devoid of functionality if you don't log
into the Apple mainframe servers 24/7/365 just for basic functionality.
I got an iPhone SE from my employer and can't reproduce this.
Even without internet and without connection to Apple it still works. I
can take pictures with it, listen to music which is stored on the device
and even call people if I only have GSM without internet.
So what exactly do you mean?
Arno,

Do you know that I've been using iOS & Android for many years?
Do you know that I *test* what they can and cannot do without accounts?

If not, then you need to TRY it yourself.
Let's take the simplest case possible, Arno.

a. Buy a new iOS device
b. Do NOT create a mothership account on it (i.e., Apple)
c. Tell us all what that device can do and cannot do

Then let's repeat that simplest case, Arno, for all other OSs.
a. Buy a new Windows or Android device
b. Do NOT create a mothership account on it (i.e., MS or Google)
c. Tell us all what that device can do and cannot do

Do you see a difference?
Is it astoundingly huge?

Why?

HINT: The iOS device can't do *anything* without that mothership account.
Which is why iOS owners are logged into Apple servers 24/7/365 forever.

Yes. Even you.
Alan
2024-12-21 21:50:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Andrew
The iPhone is a dumb terminal - devoid of functionality if you don't log
into the Apple mainframe servers 24/7/365 just for basic functionality.
I got an iPhone SE from my employer and can't reproduce this.
Even without internet and without connection to Apple it still works. I
can take pictures with it, listen to music which is stored on the device
and even call people if I only have GSM without internet.
So what exactly do you mean?
Arno,
Do you know that I've been using iOS & Android for many years?
Do you know that I *test* what they can and cannot do without accounts?
If not, then you need to TRY it yourself.
Let's take the simplest case possible, Arno.
a. Buy a new iOS device
b. Do NOT create a mothership account on it (i.e., Apple)
c. Tell us all what that device can do and cannot do
Then let's repeat that simplest case, Arno, for all other OSs.
a. Buy a new Windows or Android device
b. Do NOT create a mothership account on it (i.e., MS or Google)
c. Tell us all what that device can do and cannot do
Do you see a difference?
Is it astoundingly huge?
Why?
HINT: The iOS device can't do *anything* without that mothership account.
Which is why iOS owners are logged into Apple servers 24/7/365 forever.
Yes. Even you.
I have an iPad.

I've just logged out of my Apple Account (formerly called "AppleID").

It seems to be working fine.

:-)
Arno Welzel
2024-12-24 03:07:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Andrew
The iPhone is a dumb terminal - devoid of functionality if you don't log
into the Apple mainframe servers 24/7/365 just for basic functionality.
I got an iPhone SE from my employer and can't reproduce this.
Even without internet and without connection to Apple it still works. I
can take pictures with it, listen to music which is stored on the device
and even call people if I only have GSM without internet.
So what exactly do you mean?
Arno,
Do you know that I've been using iOS & Android for many years?
Do you know that I *test* what they can and cannot do without accounts?
So what? I talk about using the device when not having an active
connection to Apple servers and not about using it without setting up an
Apple account at all.
Post by Andrew
If not, then you need to TRY it yourself.
Let's take the simplest case possible, Arno.
a. Buy a new iOS device
b. Do NOT create a mothership account on it (i.e., Apple)
c. Tell us all what that device can do and cannot do
JFTR: I got from my employer was already configured and I do *not* have
an Apple account and I can *not* use stuff like the Apple App store. So
Apple seems to provide options for companies to give their employees
devices but without the need for an Apple account on the device itself.
Post by Andrew
Then let's repeat that simplest case, Arno, for all other OSs.
a. Buy a new Windows or Android device
b. Do NOT create a mothership account on it (i.e., MS or Google)
Which is not possible in Windows 11 nowadays without any "hacks". The
default is, that Windows won't install without a "mothership account".
Post by Andrew
c. Tell us all what that device can do and cannot do
Do you see a difference?
Is it astoundingly huge?
For Windows 11: no.
Post by Andrew
Why?
Because Apple wants it this way. If you don't like that, don't use the
devices - problem solved.
Post by Andrew
HINT: The iOS device can't do *anything* without that mothership account.
Which is why iOS owners are logged into Apple servers 24/7/365 forever.
It depends what you define as "logged into Apple servers".
Post by Andrew
Yes. Even you.
No, not me personally - see above, I don't have a personal Apple account
on the device which I got from my employer and can't even install apps
there.
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
david
2024-12-20 20:50:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ant
Post by Alan
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
On the other hand Apple customers don't care. They also don't care that
FaceTime is only possible with other Apple users. In the US iOS has a
<https://explodingtopics.com/blog/iphone-android-users>
Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is overwhelmingly
Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which most
of the world may not necessarily have.
For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to the
internet or not.
Ditto. I put mine offline when not needed.
How can you send and receive group facetime messages to and from other
Apple users without logging into Apple's messaging servers on the Internet?
Alan
2024-12-20 21:59:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Ant
Post by Alan
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
On the other hand Apple customers don't care. They also don't care that
FaceTime is only possible with other Apple users. In the US iOS has a
market share of nearly 60% and the Android market share is
<https://explodingtopics.com/blog/iphone-android-users>
Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is overwhelmingly
Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which most
of the world may not necessarily have.
For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to
the internet or not.
Ditto. I put mine offline when not needed.
How can you send and receive group facetime messages to and from other
Apple users without logging into Apple's messaging servers on the Internet?
How can ANY smartphone do something that is INHERENTLY between different
devices without network access.

That's not the same as claiming it's a "dumb terminal" without network
access.

Looking at my home screen:

I can have on-phone contacts.

On-phone notes

On-phone reminders

The camera still takes pictures, and I can still view and edit them in
Photos.

My calculator still calculates.

The clock still tells time.

My on-phone music still plays.

And there are loads more apps and functionality that--

while requiring internet access

--in no way depend on being logged into ANYTHING Apple.
Ant
2024-12-20 22:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Ant
Post by Alan
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
On the other hand Apple customers don't care. They also don't care that
FaceTime is only possible with other Apple users. In the US iOS has a
<https://explodingtopics.com/blog/iphone-android-users>
Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is overwhelmingly
Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which most
of the world may not necessarily have.
For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to the
internet or not.
Ditto. I put mine offline when not needed.
How can you send and receive group facetime messages to and from other
Apple users without logging into Apple's messaging servers on the Internet?
Why would I want those when I don't want to be bothered?
--
"'Do not be afraid,' Samuel replied. 'You have done all this evil; yet do not turn away from the Lord, but serve the Lord with all your heart.'" --1 Samuel 12:20. Thank God 4 not going out 2day on a slammy Th.
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )
david
2024-12-20 22:58:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ant
Post by david
How can you send and receive group facetime messages to and from other
Apple users without logging into Apple's messaging servers on the Internet?
Why would I want those when I don't want to be bothered?
You're the one who lied about iOS not always needing internet access to use
the features locked inside Apple's walled garden (such as to install apps).

Your iOS device does almost nothing without logging into Apple's servers.

It's up to you, not me, to explain why you lied that you don't need to log
into Apple's servers to use the walled garden (such as to install apps).
Alan
2024-12-20 23:02:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Ant
Post by david
How can you send and receive group facetime messages to and from other
Apple users without logging into Apple's messaging servers on the Internet?
Why would I want those when I don't want to be bothered?
You're the one who lied about iOS not always needing internet access to use
the features locked inside Apple's walled garden (such as to install apps).
The claim was:

"constant 24/7/365 Internet access"
Post by david
Your iOS device does almost nothing without logging into Apple's servers.
It's up to you, not me, to explain why you lied that you don't need to log
into Apple's servers to use the walled garden (such as to install apps).
"constant 24/7/365 Internet access"
david
2024-12-21 01:04:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by david
It's up to you, not me, to explain why you lied that you don't need to log
into Apple's servers to use the walled garden (such as to install apps).
"constant 24/7/365 Internet access"
You're always logged in. 24 hours a day. 7 days a week. 365 days a year.
That's "constant Internet access".
Alan
2024-12-21 01:18:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Alan
Post by david
It's up to you, not me, to explain why you lied that you don't need to log
into Apple's servers to use the walled garden (such as to install apps).
"constant 24/7/365 Internet access"
You're always logged in. 24 hours a day. 7 days a week. 365 days a year.
That's "constant Internet access".
You might CHOOSE to do that...

...but there is no NECESSITY to do that to make use of an iPhone.
david
2024-12-21 02:13:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by david
Post by Alan
Post by david
It's up to you, not me, to explain why you lied that you don't need to log
into Apple's servers to use the walled garden (such as to install apps).
"constant 24/7/365 Internet access"
You're always logged in. 24 hours a day. 7 days a week. 365 days a year.
That's "constant Internet access".
You might CHOOSE to do that...
...but there is no NECESSITY to do that to make use of an iPhone.
Sure 0.00000000000001% of iOS users are NOT logged into it all the time.

But 99.999999999999% of iOS users are logged into Apple's servers 24/7/365.

Because without being logged in 24/7/365, the walled garden doesn't work.
Alan
2024-12-21 02:15:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Alan
Post by david
Post by Alan
Post by david
It's up to you, not me, to explain why you lied that you don't need to log
into Apple's servers to use the walled garden (such as to install apps).
"constant 24/7/365 Internet access"
You're always logged in. 24 hours a day. 7 days a week. 365 days a year.
That's "constant Internet access".
You might CHOOSE to do that...
...but there is no NECESSITY to do that to make use of an iPhone.
Sure 0.00000000000001% of iOS users are NOT logged into it all the time.
But 99.999999999999% of iOS users are logged into Apple's servers 24/7/365.
Because without being logged in 24/7/365, the walled garden doesn't work.
I'm sorry, but that's just so much bullshit.

See my other message.
david
2024-12-21 02:44:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by david
Post by Alan
You might CHOOSE to do that...
...but there is no NECESSITY to do that to make use of an iPhone.
Sure 0.00000000000001% of iOS users are NOT logged into it all the time.
But 99.999999999999% of iOS users are logged into Apple's servers 24/7/365.
Because without being logged in 24/7/365, the walled garden doesn't work.
I'm sorry, but that's just so much bullshit.
See my other message.
This lying idiot doesn't even know the difference between being on the
internet & logging into a specific walled-garden account on Apple servers.
Arno Welzel
2024-12-21 16:11:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Alan
Post by david
Post by Alan
Post by david
It's up to you, not me, to explain why you lied that you don't need to log
into Apple's servers to use the walled garden (such as to install apps).
"constant 24/7/365 Internet access"
You're always logged in. 24 hours a day. 7 days a week. 365 days a year.
That's "constant Internet access".
You might CHOOSE to do that...
...but there is no NECESSITY to do that to make use of an iPhone.
Sure 0.00000000000001% of iOS users are NOT logged into it all the time.
But 99.999999999999% of iOS users are logged into Apple's servers 24/7/365.
Because without being logged in 24/7/365, the walled garden doesn't work.
And if you don't need the walled garden all the time, then you don't
need to be logged in all the time. So what?
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
david
2024-12-21 20:35:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
And if you don't need the walled garden all the time, then you don't
need to be logged in all the time. So what?
Nobody on iOS is NOT logged into Apple's servers 100% of the time.
100% of iOS users are logged into Apple servers 100% of the time.

Which is why Android (not iOS) has by far the word market share.
That's what

The iPhone is strategically designed from the start to be a dumb terminal.
It doesn't do anything useful that people like without Apple's servers.

Only people in rich countries can afford to be always logged into mainframe
servers just to get the device to do the basic things that people like.
Alan
2024-12-21 20:42:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Arno Welzel
And if you don't need the walled garden all the time, then you don't
need to be logged in all the time. So what?
Nobody on iOS is NOT logged into Apple's servers 100% of the time.
100% of iOS users are logged into Apple servers 100% of the time.
Again:

There is a difference between what CAN be done and what MOST people
choose to do...

...Arlen.
Post by david
Which is why Android (not iOS) has by far the word market share.
That's what
The iPhone is strategically designed from the start to be a dumb terminal.
It doesn't do anything useful that people like without Apple's servers.
I've challenged you to present something I can't do on an iPhone when
I'm definitely disconnected from Apple's servers...

...but you don't appear to be able to think of one.

Aside from getting apps from the iOS app store of course.

But you can USE those apps without being logged in.
Post by david
Only people in rich countries can afford to be always logged into mainframe
servers just to get the device to do the basic things that people like.
Ah, and now we introduce another straw man!
Carlos E.R.
2024-12-22 13:24:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Arno Welzel
And if you don't need the walled garden all the time, then you don't
need to be logged in all the time. So what?
Nobody on iOS is NOT logged into Apple's servers 100% of the time.
100% of iOS users are logged into Apple servers 100% of the time.
Which is why Android (not iOS) has by far the word market share.
That's what
Which is why...? Sorry, there is no logic in that statement.
Post by david
The iPhone is strategically designed from the start to be a dumb terminal.
It doesn't do anything useful that people like without Apple's servers.
Only people in rich countries can afford to be always logged into mainframe
servers just to get the device to do the basic things that people like.
Arlen? Is that you?
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Arno Welzel
2024-12-24 03:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Arno Welzel
And if you don't need the walled garden all the time, then you don't
need to be logged in all the time. So what?
Nobody on iOS is NOT logged into Apple's servers 100% of the time.
100% of iOS users are logged into Apple servers 100% of the time.
Which is why Android (not iOS) has by far the word market share.
That's what
No, Android has the market share because the devices are damn cheap. If
iPhones would also be available for less than 100 USD like many cheap
Android devices, than the market share would be much higher.

Most people don't care for privacy, really. Only money is important.
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Arno Welzel
2024-12-21 16:10:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Alan
Post by david
It's up to you, not me, to explain why you lied that you don't need to log
into Apple's servers to use the walled garden (such as to install apps).
"constant 24/7/365 Internet access"
You're always logged in. 24 hours a day. 7 days a week. 365 days a year.
That's "constant Internet access".
Maybe you are - but I am not. My employers iPhone SE is *not* always
logged in since I sometimes have it with me at places where there is no
network available. And the device still works and still can be used as
camera, music player, calculator etc..
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Andrew
2024-12-21 20:41:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by david
You're always logged in. 24 hours a day. 7 days a week. 365 days a year.
That's "constant Internet access".
Maybe you are - but I am not. My employers iPhone SE is *not* always
logged in since I sometimes have it with me at places where there is no
network available. And the device still works and still can be used as
camera, music player, calculator etc..
Nope. You're wrong. You know nothing about how iOS works.
But see for yourself BEFORE you respond please.

Try this BEFORE you respond please.

1. Log out of the iCloud, Facetime, Messages, AppStore, etc.
2. Then try to do something you like in the walled garden.

You can't.

Worse, the iPad will nag you until the end of time to log back in.
Ask me how I know this?

Eventually, after two years (on two different iPads) Apple will brick the
account (again, ask me how I know this).

Then you have to go to the Apple store and present your government ID.
Only then will Apple unlock your account that you didn't log into.

Ask me how I know all this.

You know NOTHING whatsoever about this.
Because you never tried logging OUT of Apple's accounts.

Please TRY IT FIRST before you respond.
I have so you can do it too since you're smarter than I am Arno.

1. Apple "ID Verification" prompts come up ten, twenty or more times a day.
<Loading Image...>
2. Apple "Sign-in to iCloud" prompts come up a dozen or more times a day.
<Loading Image...>
3. Apple won't let you sign in even with the _correct_ login & password.
<Loading Image...>
4. The Apple web site is so poorly designed it doesn't even tell you why.
<Loading Image...>
5. Eventually, as it did with one of my iPads already, Apple destroys it.
<Loading Image...>
<Loading Image...>
6. On my 2nd iPad, the Apple apps stop working (but everything else works!)
<Loading Image...>
7. Every single day, many times a day, you're confronted with tracking crap
such as this "Some account services require you to sign in again"
<Loading Image...>
8. Interestingly, you can update your iOS (which I almost never do) as
shown
here where I updated this week from iOS 13 to iOS 15 (and it let me).
<Loading Image...>
9. And you can wipe out your Siri recordings (due to the recent zero-day).
<Loading Image...>
10. Yet Apple tracking servers still require "Apple ID Verification"
<Loading Image...>
11. And, you can install an app, but if you delete it, you can't
re-install.
<Loading Image...>
<Loading Image...>
12. In the end, if you attempt that forced validation on VPN, Apple
unilaterally destroys your investment by locking you out of it forever!
<https://i.postimg.cc/q75t7MSk/appleid03.jpg>
13. All because Apple tracking servers _require_ periodic ID verification.
<Loading Image...>
<https://i.postimg.cc/q75t7MSk/appleid03.jpg>

If you don't even *L@@K* at that proof, then you will continue to know
absolutely nothing about how iOS actually works, Arno.

Nothing works on iOS that you like once you log out of Apple's accounts.
Arno Welzel
2024-12-24 03:10:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by david
You're always logged in. 24 hours a day. 7 days a week. 365 days a year.
That's "constant Internet access".
Maybe you are - but I am not. My employers iPhone SE is *not* always
logged in since I sometimes have it with me at places where there is no
network available. And the device still works and still can be used as
camera, music player, calculator etc..
Nope. You're wrong. You know nothing about how iOS works.
But see for yourself BEFORE you respond please.
Try this BEFORE you respond please.
1. Log out of the iCloud, Facetime, Messages, AppStore, etc.
I can't. The device is completely controlled by my employer. I don't
have access to the AppStore anyway.
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Arno Welzel
2024-12-21 16:09:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Ant
Post by david
How can you send and receive group facetime messages to and from other
Apple users without logging into Apple's messaging servers on the Internet?
Why would I want those when I don't want to be bothered?
You're the one who lied about iOS not always needing internet access to use
the features locked inside Apple's walled garden (such as to install apps).
Your iOS device does almost nothing without logging into Apple's servers.
"Almost nothing"? Well - calling people on the phone is possible, taking
pictures, listening to music stored on the device, checking the current
time, using the calculator and *all* other apps which don't need an
active internet connection to work... I would not call this "almost
nothing". It's not less as with Android devices when you don't have
internet access.
Post by david
It's up to you, not me, to explain why you lied that you don't need to log
into Apple's servers to use the walled garden (such as to install apps).
Installing apps and using Apple services is just a part of the device
features. You also don't need Google services all the time to use an
Android device. But without *any* network connection *all* smartphones
have limited functionality. So why do you consider this "almost nothing"
when it comes to Apple devices? Do Android devices also do "almost
nothing" without internet connection and access to Google services, just
because you can't access Google Play?
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Andrew
2024-12-21 20:56:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by david
Your iOS device does almost nothing without logging into Apple's servers.
"Almost nothing"?
Arno - I thought you knew something about Android.
I thought you were smart. Not stupid.

I even thought you knew more about Android than I do, Arno.
But I must have been wrong.

We're talking about the "walled garden" Arno. Even you should know that.
Post by Arno Welzel
Well - calling people on the phone is possible, taking
pictures, listening to music stored on the device, checking the current
time, using the calculator and *all* other apps which don't need an
active internet connection to work...
Try logging out of your Apple account and then sharing files across devices
on your own LAN, Arno. Do that please BEFORE you respond 'cuz you can't.
Post by Arno Welzel
I would not call this "almost
nothing". It's not less as with Android devices when you don't have
internet access.
We're talking about the "walled garden" things you like, Arno.

Log out of your many Apple accounts (iCloud, Messages, FaceTime, AppStore,
etc.) and then *try* all those walled-garden things you love to do.

You can't do them without being logged in 24/7/365 Arno.
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by david
It's up to you, not me, to explain why you lied that you don't need to log
into Apple's servers to use the walled garden (such as to install apps).
Installing apps and using Apple services is just a part of the device
features. You also don't need Google services all the time to use an
Android device.
C'mon. Even you, Arno, mut know that you do NOT need to have a Google
Account set up on Android to install apps and use Google Services.

If you don't know something that simple, then I gave you more credit for
understanding how Android works than I should have since you're a smarter
man than I am (or so I had thought).

What makes you think I need to add a Google Account to my phone, for
example, to check my email (even if it's a Google Email)? I don't.

What makes you think I need to add a Google Account on my phone to download
apps (even apps off the Google Play store)? I don't.

C'mon Arno. You're not that ignorant.
You must know that you *must* set up an iPhone with an account, right?

And you must know that no other operating system (except Apple's) requires
that account just to get the phone to do *anything* (yes, even make
calls!).

You can't be *that* ignorant of either Android or iOS, can you?
Post by Arno Welzel
But without *any* network connection *all* smartphones
have limited functionality.
C'mon Arno. That's something so stupid that only Alan Baker would be
confused about the difference between being on the Internet and being
logged into a mothership mainframe server.

How can you NOT understand something so basic, Arno?

I thought you were smart, Arno?
I thought you knew the absolute basics Arno?

You don't seem to understand that being on the Internet is not the same
thing as logging into a mothership mainframe server account, Arno.

Look up the difference. Use something called "google" or "duckduckgo".
Ask "What is the difference between the Internet and logging into a
mainframe account on a mothership server on the Internet" for example.

Do that lookup BEFORE you respond Arno.

Because you sound stupid claiming that the Internet is the same thing as
logging into a mothership mainframe server account.

Every claim you made in this post was that of a stupid ignorant person,
Arno.
Post by Arno Welzel
So why do you consider this "almost nothing"
when it comes to Apple devices?
Do you even realize that you can't even "make calls" on an iPhone until you
get on the Internet and log into Apple's mainframe servers, Arno?

Seriously.
Everything you've said shows you know NOTHING about iOS.
Post by Arno Welzel
Do Android devices also do "almost
nothing" without internet connection and access to Google services, just
because you can't access Google Play?
Arno. Seriously. I thought you knew something about Android.
Yet you know NOTHING about Android.

I don't have a Google Account set up on my Android phone, Arno.
I've *never* had a Google Account set up on my Android phone, Arno.

And I can do more than most people can do on my Android phone, Arno.
For you to claim otherwise simply means you know NOTHING about Android.

Stop making idiotic claims.

Being on the Internet is NOT the same thing as logging into Google
accounts. For you to claim they're equivalent is absurd, Arno.

Learn the DIFFERENCE between these two things BEFORE you respond, Arno.
1. The Internet
2. Logging into an account on the Internet

Why can't you discern there is a difference between those two things?
Talking to you is like talking to Alan Baker.

I thought you were smarter than he.

In your response, please explain what YOU THINK is the difference between
logging into a specific account on the Internet, and the Internet itself.
Arno Welzel
2024-12-24 03:12:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by david
Your iOS device does almost nothing without logging into Apple's servers.
"Almost nothing"?
Arno - I thought you knew something about Android.
I thought you were smart. Not stupid.
I even thought you knew more about Android than I do, Arno.
But I must have been wrong.
No, you just don't tell what you *REALLY* mean.

If you want to express "one needs to create an Apple account to use an
iPhone" than say it! And don't say, that an iPhone has to PHYSICALLY
CONNECTED to the internet all the time!
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Arno Welzel
2024-12-21 16:05:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Ant
Post by Alan
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
On the other hand Apple customers don't care. They also don't care that
FaceTime is only possible with other Apple users. In the US iOS has a
<https://explodingtopics.com/blog/iphone-android-users>
Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is overwhelmingly
Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which most
of the world may not necessarily have.
For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to the
internet or not.
Ditto. I put mine offline when not needed.
How can you send and receive group facetime messages to and from other
Apple users without logging into Apple's messaging servers on the Internet?
Is "send and receive group facetime messages" neccessary to do phone
calls, taking pictures or listening to music stored on the device?
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Andrew
2024-12-21 21:04:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by david
How can you send and receive group facetime messages to and from other
Apple users without logging into Apple's messaging servers on the Internet?
Is "send and receive group facetime messages" neccessary to do phone
calls, taking pictures or listening to music stored on the device?
Arno,

Please tell all of us how you can do *anything* on the iOS device *without*
logging into the Internet to *create* an Apple account on Apple's servers.

C'mon... tell us.

HINT: You can't even make a phone call without doing that first, Arno.

Note that if you don't know this simple fact, which everyone knows by the
way, then it means you know absolutely NOTHING about how iOS devices work.

Discussing such basics with you is absurd because you sound like Alan Baker
who also knows absolutely nothing about how anything works, Arno.

Please stop saying absurd claims that only people like Alan Baker say.

Log out of all your Apple accounts, Arno - and then you tell us all what
you can and cannot do. Do not respond until AFTER you've logged out of
them!

Otherwise you know NOTHING about how iOS works, Arno.
Only Apple requires you to create an account to do the simplest of things.

HINT:
a. Take a new iPhone
b. Do NOT create an Apple Account on it
c. Try to make phone calls

Tell us all how well that works out for you, Arno.
Alan
2024-12-21 21:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by david
How can you send and receive group facetime messages to and from other
Apple users without logging into Apple's messaging servers on the Internet?
Is "send and receive group facetime messages" neccessary to do phone
calls, taking pictures or listening to music stored on the device?
Arno,
Please tell all of us how you can do *anything* on the iOS device *without*
logging into the Internet to *create* an Apple account on Apple's servers.
C'mon... tell us.
HINT: You can't even make a phone call without doing that first, Arno.
You can certainly make phone calls on an iPhone without being logged
into your Apple account.
Post by Andrew
Note that if you don't know this simple fact, which everyone knows by the
way, then it means you know absolutely NOTHING about how iOS devices work.
Discussing such basics with you is absurd because you sound like Alan Baker
who also knows absolutely nothing about how anything works, Arno.
Please stop saying absurd claims that only people like Alan Baker say.
Log out of all your Apple accounts, Arno - and then you tell us all what
you can and cannot do. Do not respond until AFTER you've logged out of
them!
Tell me something I supposedly can't do.

I'll grant you downloading apps. But once downloaded they work fine
whether you're logged into your Apple account or not.
Post by Andrew
Otherwise you know NOTHING about how iOS works, Arno.
Only Apple requires you to create an account to do the simplest of things.
HINT: a. Take a new iPhone
b. Do NOT create an Apple Account on it
c. Try to make phone calls
Tell us all how well that works out for you, Arno.
<https://www.imobie.com/iphone-unlocker/set-up-iphone-without-apple-id.htm>
Arno Welzel
2024-12-24 03:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by david
How can you send and receive group facetime messages to and from other
Apple users without logging into Apple's messaging servers on the Internet?
Is "send and receive group facetime messages" neccessary to do phone
calls, taking pictures or listening to music stored on the device?
Arno,
Please tell all of us how you can do *anything* on the iOS device *without*
logging into the Internet to *create* an Apple account on Apple's servers.
I am not talking about "logging in" anywhere!

I talk about ACTIVE NETWORK CONNECTION!
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Oliver
2024-12-20 20:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by Andrew
Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is overwhelmingly
Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which most
of the world may not necessarily have.
For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to the
internet or not.
How do you install apps without logging into Apple's app store on the net?
Carlos E.R.
2024-12-20 21:24:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oliver
Post by Alan
Post by Andrew
Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is
overwhelmingly
Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which most
of the world may not necessarily have.
For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to
the internet or not.
How do you install apps without logging into Apple's app store on the net?
Arlen, please... using multiple IDs in the same discussion is not polite.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Alan
2024-12-20 22:00:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oliver
Post by Alan
Post by Andrew
Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is
overwhelmingly
Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which most
of the world may not necessarily have.
For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to
the internet or not.
How do you install apps without logging into Apple's app store on the net?
Occasionally logging in to install an app isn't the same as the
"constant 24/7/365 Internet access" claim...

...now is it?
david
2024-12-21 01:04:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by Oliver
How do you install apps without logging into Apple's app store on the net?
Occasionally logging in to install an app isn't the same as the
"constant 24/7/365 Internet access" claim...
Log out of Apple messages, facetime, app store, iCloud etc and tell us how
good Apple's walled garden apps work without being logged into its servers.
Alan
2024-12-21 01:17:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Alan
Post by Oliver
How do you install apps without logging into Apple's app store on the net?
Occasionally logging in to install an app isn't the same as the
"constant 24/7/365 Internet access" claim...
Log out of Apple messages, facetime, app store, iCloud etc and tell us how
good Apple's walled garden apps work without being logged into its servers.
I know how well it works.

And it works fine.
david
2024-12-21 02:13:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by david
Log out of Apple messages, facetime, app store, iCloud etc and tell us how
good Apple's walled garden apps work without being logged into its servers.
I know how well it works.
And it works fine.
Everyone knows Apple's walled garden requires logging into it in order to
work. Except you.
Alan
2024-12-21 02:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Alan
Post by david
Log out of Apple messages, facetime, app store, iCloud etc and tell us how
good Apple's walled garden apps work without being logged into its servers.
I know how well it works.
And it works fine.
Everyone knows Apple's walled garden requires logging into it in order to
work. Except you.
I'm sorry, but YOU are wrong.

Tell me specific things you think I can't do...

...that don't naturally require internet access...

...and I'll start posting screenshots of me doing them.

:-)
david
2024-12-21 02:45:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
Tell me specific things you think I can't do...
...that don't naturally require internet access...
This lying idiot doesn't even know the difference between being on the
internet & logging into a specific walled-garden account on Apple servers.
Alan
2024-12-21 02:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Alan
Tell me specific things you think I can't do...
...that don't naturally require internet access...
This lying idiot doesn't even know the difference between being on the
internet & logging into a specific walled-garden account on Apple servers.
I've made you a specific challenge, doofus.

Tell me what on my phone is suppose to stop working if I turn off the
WiFi and mobile data.
david
2024-12-21 02:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by david
Post by Alan
Tell me specific things you think I can't do...
...that don't naturally require internet access...
This lying idiot doesn't even know the difference between being on the
internet & logging into a specific walled-garden account on Apple servers.
I've made you a specific challenge, doofus.
Tell me what on my phone is suppose to stop working if I turn off the
WiFi and mobile data.
You're the lying idiot who doesn't even realize the obvious difference
between being on the Internet versus logging into a specific Apple account.

Log out of all your Apple accounts and then try to use the walled garden.
You can't. Idiot.
Alan
2024-12-21 03:05:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by david
Post by Alan
Post by david
Post by Alan
Tell me specific things you think I can't do...
...that don't naturally require internet access...
This lying idiot doesn't even know the difference between being on the
internet & logging into a specific walled-garden account on Apple servers.
I've made you a specific challenge, doofus.
Tell me what on my phone is suppose to stop working if I turn off the
WiFi and mobile data.
You're the lying idiot who doesn't even realize the obvious difference
between being on the Internet versus logging into a specific Apple account.
Log out of all your Apple accounts and then try to use the walled garden.
You can't. Idiot.
No. I understand the difference quite clearly.

But it is SIMPLER for me to turn off my internet access.

You DO understand that if I have no internet access on the phone, then
my phone CANNOT be communicating with Apple's servers, correct?
Arno Welzel
2024-12-21 16:12:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oliver
Post by Alan
Post by Andrew
Given the US is only about half Android and yet the world is overwhelmingly
Android, we all need to keep in mind Apple's vaunted "walled garden"
doesn't work unless you have constant 24/7/365 Internet access which most
of the world may not necessarily have.
For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to the
internet or not.
How do you install apps without logging into Apple's app store on the net?
By using alternative app stores. Even Apple *must* provide this nowadays
in some regions.
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Andrew
2024-12-21 21:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Oliver
Post by Alan
For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to the
internet or not.
How do you install apps without logging into Apple's app store on the net?
By using alternative app stores. Even Apple *must* provide this nowadays
in some regions.
Yes. Only recently. And there are almost no apps. But this is correct
because the EU forced Apple to care about its customers for once.

But even so, without initializing an Apple device on Apple's servers, it
can't do anything - not even make phone calls.

Don't believe me?
Try it.

a. Buy a brand new iPhone & pop a valid known-working SIM card in it
b. DO NOT EVER LOG INTO ANY APPLE SERVER
c. Try to do something simple - anything - like make a phone call

What do you think happens?
Alan
2024-12-21 21:17:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Oliver
Post by Alan
For the record, my iPhone continues to work whether I'm connected to
the internet or not.
How do you install apps without logging into Apple's app store on the net?
By using alternative app stores. Even Apple *must* provide this nowadays
in some regions.
Yes. Only recently. And there are almost no apps. But this is correct
because the EU forced Apple to care about its customers for once.
But even so, without initializing an Apple device on Apple's servers, it
can't do anything - not even make phone calls.
Don't believe me?
Try it.
a. Buy a brand new iPhone & pop a valid known-working SIM card in it
b. DO NOT EVER LOG INTO ANY APPLE SERVER
c. Try to do something simple - anything - like make a phone call
What do you think happens?
'Finally, click on Don’t use to confirm, and you will be able to set up
iPhone without Apple ID.'

<https://www.imobie.com/iphone-unlocker/set-up-iphone-without-apple-id.htm>
Jörg Lorenz
2024-12-18 07:22:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Avoid to use RCS!
If an iPhone is involved. It's fine on Android. The article you posted
says so.
You do not understand what happens.
RCS is Google's wet dream. Nobody needs it or wants it.
RCS works fine - much better than MMS ever was. Google just added a
proprietary encryption to it.
Proprietary, maybe, but they did not block Apple from using it. It was
Apple who decided not even to try using it. Ok, it is not an standard,
but it exists, it is there, ready to use. Just use, then agree into an
standard, and implement it next.
That is naive. Proprietary and encryption are a contradiction.
And you do not seem to understand the powerplay of big tech.
--
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)
Alan
2024-12-18 08:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Avoid to use RCS!
If an iPhone is involved. It's fine on Android. The article you posted
says so.
You do not understand what happens.
RCS is Google's wet dream. Nobody needs it or wants it.
RCS works fine - much better than MMS ever was. Google just added a
proprietary encryption to it.
Proprietary, maybe, but they did not block Apple from using it. It was
Apple who decided not even to try using it. Ok, it is not an standard,
but it exists, it is there, ready to use. Just use, then agree into an
standard, and implement it next.
That is naive. Proprietary and encryption are a contradiction.
And you do not seem to understand the powerplay of big tech.
No. Proprietary and encryption are NOT a contradiction.

Don't argue from false positions.
Jörg Lorenz
2024-12-21 07:53:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
No. Proprietary and encryption are NOT a contradiction.
Don't argue from false positions.
You do not understand the concept of asymmetric secure end-to-end
encryption. Those who own the service provide the encryption? Seriously?
Naive to the max.
--
"De gustibus non est disputandum."
Alan
2024-12-21 08:11:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Alan
No. Proprietary and encryption are NOT a contradiction.
Don't argue from false positions.
You do not understand the concept of asymmetric secure end-to-end
encryption. Those who own the service provide the encryption? Seriously?
Naive to the max.
I'm sorry but your premise is flawed.

There is a difference between what CAN be wrong with it and what must be
INHERENTLY wrong with it.
Arno Welzel
2024-12-21 16:13:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Alan
No. Proprietary and encryption are NOT a contradiction.
Don't argue from false positions.
You do not understand the concept of asymmetric secure end-to-end
encryption. Those who own the service provide the encryption? Seriously?
Naive to the max.
You know the meaning of end-to-end-encryption?
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Jörg Lorenz
2024-12-22 07:59:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Alan
No. Proprietary and encryption are NOT a contradiction.
Don't argue from false positions.
You do not understand the concept of asymmetric secure end-to-end
encryption. Those who own the service provide the encryption? Seriously?
Naive to the max.
You know the meaning of end-to-end-encryption?
Very stupid question. In this case it is a Zero-Trust issue.
--
"Ave! Morituri te salutant!"
Jörg Lorenz
2024-12-22 08:10:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Alan
No. Proprietary and encryption are NOT a contradiction.
Don't argue from false positions.
You do not understand the concept of asymmetric secure end-to-end
encryption. Those who own the service provide the encryption? Seriously?
Naive to the max.
You know the meaning of end-to-end-encryption?
Very stupid question. In this case it is a Zero-Trust issue.
In the developed world are not many encryption-users that would trust
either Google or Microsoft (there are more). It is not advisable to use
an encryption chain where one commercial company has the control over
the chain. Particularly when the company is located/headquartered in
Trumpistan.

You know what a "Masterkey" or a "Backdoor" is?
--
"Ave! Morituri te salutant!"
badgolferman
2024-12-22 11:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
You know what a "Masterkey" or a "Backdoor" is?
Aren’t those terms used in relation to a chastity belt?
badgolferman
2024-12-18 10:53:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Avoid to use RCS!
If an iPhone is involved. It's fine on Android. The article you posted
says so.
You do not understand what happens.
RCS is Google's wet dream. Nobody needs it or wants it.
RCS works fine - much better than MMS ever was. Google just added a
proprietary encryption to it.
Proprietary, maybe, but they did not block Apple from using it. It was
Apple who decided not even to try using it. Ok, it is not an standard,
but it exists, it is there, ready to use. Just use, then agree into an
standard, and implement it next.
That is naive. Proprietary and encryption are a contradiction.
And you do not seem to understand the powerplay of big tech.
By being dismissive and haughty, you are demonstrating that it is you who
does not understand anything. You’ve already been invited to educate us, so
do that. But we know you are more ignorant than anyone else here.
Jan K.
2024-12-18 17:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
And you do not seem to understand the powerplay of big tech.
Jorg Lornz is the one to explain it though since he understand it all.

Jorg: Please explain to all what you know about this tech "powerplay."
Arno Welzel
2024-12-17 23:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Avoid to use RCS! It is not what it seems and it is insecure and does
not respect your privacy. Elements that could make is safer are
proprietary Google stuff.
This is an advice from the FBI.
To be more precise:

The problem is using RCS between Android and Non-Android-Devices since
encryption is not standard for RCS and does not work when you
communicate from Android to iOS or vice versa.

However Android will show you, if messages to a specific recipient will
be sent using encryption or not.

[...]
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Apple and Google could have, and should have, prevented this. Instead,
Google was worried about tossing barbs at Apple and then taking a
victory lap even when it didn't really get what it was demanding.
And Apple did not care, because they have iMessage and just ignore
anything outside their ecosystem.

On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and
Android exist.
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Andrew
2024-12-18 01:34:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Jörg Lorenz
This is an advice from the FBI.
The problem is using RCS between Android and Non-Android-Devices since
encryption is not standard for RCS and does not work when you
communicate from Android to iOS or vice versa.
However Android will show you, if messages to a specific recipient will
be sent using encryption or not.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Apple and Google could have, and should have, prevented this. Instead,
Google was worried about tossing barbs at Apple and then taking a
victory lap even when it didn't really get what it was demanding.
And Apple did not care, because they have iMessage and just ignore
anything outside their ecosystem.
On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and
Android exist.
It's actually worse than Apple not caring since Apple only tells the truth
in court, where the Epic deposition proved beyond any doubt using Apple
executives' emails that Apple *never* wanted interoperability with anyone.

That's just a fact that Apple never wants interoperability.

Luckily, the EU forced Apple's hand.

But only so much... as encryption wasn't part of the EU's demands.
Alan
2024-12-18 02:16:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Jörg Lorenz
This is an advice from the FBI.
The problem is using RCS between Android and Non-Android-Devices since
encryption is not standard for RCS and does not work when you
communicate from Android to iOS or vice versa.
However Android will show you, if messages to a specific recipient will
be sent using encryption or not.
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Apple and Google could have, and should have, prevented this. Instead,
Google was worried about tossing barbs at Apple and then taking a
victory lap even when it didn't really get what it was demanding.
And Apple did not care, because they have iMessage and just ignore
anything outside their ecosystem.
On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and
Android exist.
It's actually worse than Apple not caring since Apple only tells the truth
in court, where the Epic deposition proved beyond any doubt using Apple
executives' emails that Apple *never* wanted interoperability with anyone.
You've got a source for that, do you?
Post by Andrew
That's just a fact that Apple never wants interoperability.
Luckily, the EU forced Apple's hand.
But only so much... as encryption wasn't part of the EU's demands.
s|b
2024-12-22 15:50:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and
Android exist.
<https://signal.org/>
--
s|b
Jörg Lorenz
2024-12-22 15:58:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by s|b
Post by Arno Welzel
On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and
Android exist.
<https://signal.org/>
Signal and Threema: https://threema.ch/en

Threema is the only messenger being accepted for public institutions in
Switzerland. Particularly for law enforcement, military use and public
education.
--
"Gutta cavat lapidem." (Ovid)
badgolferman
2024-12-22 16:49:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jörg Lorenz
Post by s|b
Post by Arno Welzel
On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and
Android exist.
<https://signal.org/>
Signal and Threema: https://threema.ch/en
Threema is the only messenger being accepted for public institutions in
Switzerland. Particularly for law enforcement, military use and public
education.
Couldn’t they have come up with an easier name to pronounce than that?
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