Discussion:
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
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Andrew
2025-01-01 02:08:33 UTC
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What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?

For example, YouTube app functionality can be replaced by the open-source
NewPipe app, which does NOT need a Google Account set up on the phone.

Likewise, Google Play Store APK installation from the Google Play repo can
be replaced by the open-source Aurora app, which does NOT need a Google
Account set up on the phone.

Similarly, GMail app functionality can be replaced by the FairEmail app,
which does NOT need a Google Account set up on the phone.

What app functionality from Google can NOT be replaced with an app that
does the same functionality but WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
R.Wieser
2025-01-01 07:11:07 UTC
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Andrew,
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
For example, YouTube app functionality can be replaced by the open-source
NewPipe app, which does NOT need a Google Account set up on the phone.
...

That fully depends on when you call a non-Google app a replacement for the
Google one.

Example: On Windows there are several open-source replacements for Word and
Excel. Some people reject them because they are not one-on-one
replacements.

Also, do realize that as long as you are using Googles Android you are still
part of their ecosystem (search for "google android advertising framework").
Perhaps start with replacing the OS with one which gives you the tools to
tame badly-behaving apps ?

As for your question for us to deliver replacement apps for everything thats
already on you phone and/or available in Googles "walled garden" : why don't
you just take the name of the Google app you're interrested in, pre/append
"open source" or perhaps "replacement" to it, drop it in your favorite
search-engine (Google ? :-) ) and see what you get ?

Perhaps make a list of apps in order of importance to you first ?

Personally I would start with a sand-boxed non-google webbrowser with an
adblocker (and plugin capabilities) and use that to access YouTube e.a.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
VanguardLH
2025-01-01 15:24:47 UTC
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Post by R.Wieser
Andrew,
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
For example, YouTube app functionality can be replaced by the open-source
NewPipe app, which does NOT need a Google Account set up on the phone.
...
That fully depends on when you call a non-Google app a replacement for the
Google one.
Example: On Windows there are several open-source replacements for Word and
Excel. Some people reject them because they are not one-on-one
replacements.
I tried LibreOffice for over a year. Too many functions missing, or
having to hunt for where they were buried, or goofy and often incomplete
workarounds. LibreOffice didn't even have a handle at the corner of a
table to expand it to add a new row with the same attributes while also
changing the data ranges in a linked chart. Had to go back to MS Office
for both Word and Excel.

I had not built any custom apps using VBA with any Office component, but
those who do can't migrate to other office suites. I've seen entire
corporate applications built on Office and scripts that don't look
anything like the Office apps. Conversion away from MS Office would
take a lot of time and money. Similarly, if someone built a custom
program upon LibreOffice's scripting then a whole new project would be
needed to migrate to MS Office scripting.

I know some users want to eradicate all of Edge from Windows, except
WebView2 is also used by other software.

However, I suspect the OP's viewpoint is sufficient non-Google
alternatives need not be one-on-one substitutes, just good enough for
his consideration.
Post by R.Wieser
Also, do realize that as long as you are using Googles Android you are still
part of their ecosystem (search for "google android advertising framework").
Perhaps start with replacing the OS with one which gives you the tools to
tame badly-behaving apps ?
As for your question for us to deliver replacement apps for everything thats
already on you phone and/or available in Googles "walled garden" : why don't
you just take the name of the Google app you're interrested in, pre/append
"open source" or perhaps "replacement" to it, drop it in your favorite
search-engine (Google ? :-) ) and see what you get ?
Perhaps make a list of apps in order of importance to you first ?
Personally I would start with a sand-boxed non-google webbrowser with an
adblocker (and plugin capabilities) and use that to access YouTube e.a.
As for the OP's inquiry, I use Google Maps. I've tried Here [WeGo] and
OSM as alternatives, but they weren't as useful. Here was good,
especially for offline maps. It's also used in car navigation systems.
OSM is crowd-sourced, so areas with few or no OSM users are poorly
mapped. OSM also uses public record information, like city plats, which
show planned roads that don't yet exist, and may never exist. I have
not heard of any car maker touching OSM for nav data. Is there a
non-Google replacement for Google Maps that is as robust, and updated a
lot, and not by happenstance with erratic voluntary input?

While there are non-Google alternatives, they don't seem equal. Being
good enough does not mandate an alternative is a sufficient replacement.
Few users need that warm comfy feeling of disconnecting from Google.

I'm sure Andrew really is not interested in discovering what Google-ized
apps have no "sufficient" non-Google alternatives. Seems more like he
wants to start another flame thread.
Andy Burns
2025-01-01 15:46:19 UTC
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Post by VanguardLH
I tried LibreOffice for over a year. Too many functions missing, or
having to hunt for where they were buried, or goofy and often incomplete
workarounds. LibreOffice didn't even have a handle at the corner of a
table to expand it to add a new row with the same attributes while also
changing the data ranges in a linked chart. Had to go back to MS Office
for both Word and Excel.
The last version of MS Office I installed on any of my machines was
Office97, since then only OpenOffice or more recently LibreOffice.
Post by VanguardLH
I had not built any custom apps using VBA with any Office component, but
those who do can't migrate to other office suites.
If I end-up using a desktop of a customer it will have Office365
installed. I hadn't done much Word/VBA programming until this year when
someone wanted a system to generate and maintain risk assessment
documents based on numerous partial boilerplates.

I tried to do it using the "modern" Word javascript API, but found it
was far from good enough for the task, so scrapped it and started again
using VBA and that wasn't bad.
Post by VanguardLH
I've seen entire corporate applications built on Office and scripts
that don't look anything like the Office apps. Conversion away from
MS Office would take a lot of time and money. Similarly, if someone
built a custom program upon LibreOffice's scripting then a whole new
project would be needed to migrate to MS Office scripting.
Agreed, you're making a one-off choice there.
Andrew
2025-01-02 04:36:26 UTC
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Post by Andy Burns
Agreed, you're making a one-off choice there.
Theo seems to be the only person who UNDERSTOOD the question, since most
people have no clue how Android works - they don't know how Google works.

They think this question is about a Google Account on the Internet.
It's not about that at all.

It's about how Android works with Google apps - which only Theo understood.
And specifically, which Google apps need to have a non-Google replacement.

One key reason for that non-Google replacement is the fact that...
1. Most Google apps do not infest Android with an integral account
2. But some do

Almost nobody but Theo and I (so far) are aware of that obvious fact.
Andy Burns
2025-01-01 10:13:56 UTC
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Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
For example, YouTube app functionality can be replaced by the open-source
NewPipe app, which does NOT need a Google Account set up on the phone.
Just using https://m.youtube.com/ would likely be good enough for most
people
Post by Andrew
Similarly, GMail app functionality can be replaced by the FairEmail app,
which does NOT need a Google Account set up on the phone.
You can use the gmail website, but you won't get far without a login ...
Theo
2025-01-01 10:50:47 UTC
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Post by Andy Burns
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
For example, YouTube app functionality can be replaced by the open-source
NewPipe app, which does NOT need a Google Account set up on the phone.
Just using https://m.youtube.com/ would likely be good enough for most
people
To use a Fitbit, you need a Google account (unless you have a legacy Fitbit
account from years ago). To use the Fitbit app you need to sign in with the
Google account, which installs the Google account centrally on the phone,
which means that account infests the rest of the OS and gets used for other
stuff (eg Play Services/Store).

If your phone vendor supports 'user profiles' you can make a new profile,
add the Google account there. Then it won't interfere with other profiles
and you can terminate the session by logging out after you're done.

Theo
R.Wieser
2025-01-01 11:05:24 UTC
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Theo,
Post by Theo
To use a Fitbit, you need a Google account
Which is a good reason no to use it.

I could imagine using an open-source or freeware map app in which you can
locally(!) record the path you've walked (and calculate/estimate the total
length of that path) ?

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Newyana2
2025-01-01 12:48:36 UTC
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Post by R.Wieser
Theo,
Post by Theo
To use a Fitbit, you need a Google account
Which is a good reason no to use it.
I could imagine using an open-source or freeware map app in which you can
locally(!) record the path you've walked (and calculate/estimate the total
length of that path) ?
Or people could go back to just taking a walk and stop trying
to document "ptogress" in all things. Tracking steps is about as
pitiful as it gets.

I have a TracFone with no Google account, APKPure for
apps, something (Netguard?) to give me more control, and
all Google apps removed or disabled. But I accidentally let
it update awhile back and now I get popups telling me the
sky will fall if I don't enable Google this or that. It's really
obnoxious. I'm amazed that these companies are allowed,
legally, to exert such control over a device I paid for.

But I think Arlen is missing the point, anyway. Cellphone
under surveillance is a lifestyle. If people use apps, gmail,
maps, Waze, dating, Fitbit, DoorDash, Uber, shopping apps....
That's all spyware. Most of it is tracking location. Even just
leaving the cellphone turned on means you're being tracked.
If you care about that then you don't live on a cellphone... It's
a choice. So many people want to know the best method for
maintaining privacy while telling 6 dozen corporations their
every move.
R.Wieser
2025-01-01 14:33:31 UTC
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Newyana2,
Post by Newyana2
Post by R.Wieser
I could imagine using an open-source or freeware map app in which you can
locally(!) record the path you've walked (and calculate/estimate the
total length of that path) ?
Or people could go back to just taking a walk and stop trying
to document "ptogress" in all things. Tracking steps is about as
pitiful as it gets.
Although I agree with you, dropping all the measurement taking is probaly a
step too far for FitBit users. You'll hve to wean them off of it one step
at a time.

Than again, all our sports (and often working lives too) are based on being
the better/faster/etc. one than all the others, so I can understand the
competitive part of it.
Post by Newyana2
I have a TracFone with no Google account,
[snip]

I replaced android with graphene OS. The phone is switched off unless I
need it (when traveling). Its main app is OsmAND, a map program.
Post by Newyana2
I'm amazed that these companies are allowed, legally, to exert such
control over a device I paid for.
I hope you're not running Win10/11, which has become nothing more than a
thick ethernet client and doubling as an advertising platform. :-)
Post by Newyana2
But I think Arlen is missing the point, anyway.
That sounds like Arlen alright.
Post by Newyana2
Cellphone under surveillance is a lifestyle. If people use apps, gmail,
maps, Waze, dating, Fitbit, DoorDash, Uber, shopping apps....
That's all spyware. Most of it is tracking location.
Yup. And we have next to zero control about what those apps are allowed to
do - nor any way to even look at what they are doing. IOW, a smartphone
(running googles android) is, in regard to spamming and tracking, a big
companies wet dream.
Post by Newyana2
Even just leaving the cellphone turned on means you're being tracked.
True, but thats by a local phone company, not some faceless conglomerate
thats located outside the country, and as such almost untouchable. Being
able to use the internet to connect to servers all over the world has its up
sides, but this is one of its down sides.
Post by Newyana2
If you care about that then you don't live on a cellphone...
Ageed.
Post by Newyana2
It's a choice. So many people want to know the best method for
maintaining privacy while telling 6 dozen corporations their
every move.
I don't think that most people know about that, or, as they have not yet
bumped into problems with it, they don't care that it happens.

Funny though that my country has laws forbidding stalking and that people
will blow their casket when discovering when it happens to them - including
involvement of police - but have zero problems when their phone is doing it.
Weird, if you think about it.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Frank Slootweg
2025-01-01 15:36:37 UTC
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Post by R.Wieser
Newyana2,
[...]
Post by R.Wieser
Post by Newyana2
I have a TracFone with no Google account,
[snip]
I replaced android with graphene OS. The phone is switched off unless I
need it (when traveling). Its main app is OsmAND, a map program.
You might want to post which phone (brand, model, etc.) you have and
what you needed to do to put graphene OS on it (i.e. unlock the boot
loader, fastboot, TWRP, etc.).

Probably other privacy-concious will be interested in learning whether
or not a non-Android OS is something they would be willing to try and
how hard/easy it is to accomplish it.

Just a thought.
Newyana2
2025-01-01 18:24:35 UTC
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Post by R.Wieser
Post by Newyana2
I have a TracFone with no Google account,
[snip]
I replaced android with graphene OS. The phone is switched off unless I
need it (when traveling). Its main app is OsmAND, a map program.
I don't think I can do that with TacFone, but it's OK. I only
use the phone on an occasional basis, and pretty much only for phone calls.
Post by R.Wieser
Post by Newyana2
I'm amazed that these companies are allowed, legally, to exert such
control over a device I paid for.
I hope you're not running Win10/11, which has become nothing more than a
thick ethernet client and doubling as an advertising platform. :-)
I have Win11 installed for testing software. I haven't allowed it
online and haven't done much with it. About a year ago I built a new
computer and decided to try Win10. It took about 2 weeks, but I'm
happy. It's fast, lean, free of all the crap, with updates blocked. The
last thing I managed to accomplish was to stop ALL notification
popups. So now it works as well as XP, but with support for newer
hardware/software/64-bit, etc.

It was very complicated, but not impossible. Though after getting
it mostly set up it wouldn't activate. I had to start over from scratch and
activate first, before the tweaking. That worked. I tried to install a
security update in Auguest. One problem led to another. I finally gave up.
The upddate messed up my system big time, despite not actually
installing! Luckily I had made a disk image just before updating.

Moral of the story, to my mind: Win10 is mostly OK but very brittle and
very bloated. Win10 doesn't like tweaks. Microsoft are increasingly trying
to control everything. I've had no surprises, no ads, no Copilot showing
up, etc. But I'm not allowing any updates and have disabled as much
calling home as I can find.

I don't expect to try any updates again. The August experience was
a ridiculous fiasco that shouldn't have happened for mere security
updates. I ended up on a wild goose chase enlarging WinRE. (Which
shouldn't even be required.) And it still just screwed everything up.
BUT, the same update went without a hitch on my laptop that's
less tweaked. So that seems to be further evidence that MS are
punishing tweaks.
R.Wieser
2025-01-01 19:36:19 UTC
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Newyana2,
Post by Newyana2
Post by R.Wieser
I replaced android with graphene OS. The phone is switched off unless
I need it (when traveling). Its main app is OsmAND, a map program.
I don't think I can do that with TacFone,
Ah yes, I forgot to mention that my phone is a pixel 6. The replacing with
graphene OS was done online, using a webbrowser. Rather painless.
Post by Newyana2
I have Win11 installed for testing software. I haven't allowed it
online and haven't done much with it.
:-) As long as you do not connect it to the internet than you are,
ofcourse, shielded from most of the shennigans MS could try to pull.
Post by Newyana2
Moral of the story, to my mind: Win10 is mostly OK but very brittle
and very bloated.
I would have the same problem(s) with it as you: I tweak the sh*t outof what
I've got running.
Post by Newyana2
So that seems to be further evidence that MS are punishing tweaks.
Think of occams razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately
explained by stupidity."

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Andrew
2025-01-02 05:04:25 UTC
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Post by R.Wieser
Think of occams razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately
explained by stupidity."
Rudy is correct that nobody but Theo understood the question asked here.

The fact remains that if anyone has a Google Account set up on Android,
then they have already forfeited their right to privacy as it's impossible
to maintain privacy when a Google Account is integral to Android Settings.

The only people who stand a chance of privacy, are those who don't do that.
<https://i.postimg.cc/x1NZwj5G/account02.jpg>

Theo is the only one, so far, who understood the question, where, Fitbit on
Android requires a Google Account (because Google acquired Fitbit in 2021).

To test out Theo's FitBit observation, without a Google Account set up on
my Android phone, moments ago I anonymously downloaded the latest FitBit
app from the Google Play Store repository <com.fitbit.FitbitMobile>.

It asked me to "Sign in with Google" or "Sign in with Fitbit".

Clicking "Sign in with Fitbit" doesn't seem to allow me to *create* a
FitBit account, and "Sign in with Google" says, very clearly this:
<Loading Image...>

*The account will be added to this device*

So that makes THREE Google apps which are known to infest Android with an
unwanted integral account just by the mere act of logging into them.

1. The Google Gmail app (easily replaced with an open-source MUA)
2. The Google Voice app (less easily replaced with an open-source VOIP)
3. The Google FitBit app (is it easily replaced with an alternative app?)

To find out what that alternative app might be, I opened this thread today:
*For privacy, what is a suitable alternative to the Google FitBit app on Android?*
<https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=56645&group=comp.mobile.android#56645>
R.Wieser
2025-01-02 07:47:06 UTC
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Andrew,
Post by Andrew
Post by R.Wieser
Think of occams razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is
adequately explained by stupidity."
Rudy is correct that nobody but Theo understood the question asked here.
Lol. You're up to your old tricks I see, trying to warp what I said about
something completely else into some wonkey "conclusion" furthering your own
narrative - and than claiming that someone who didn't even come /near/ to
answering your question was 'the only one' who understood what you actually
wanted to know.

Arlen, I don't like you and I never have. However, I gave you benefit of
the doubt and provided you with a reply you could use to actually gain some
kind of an answer to your stated problem. Your above reply shows me that
that was, again, a wasted effort.
Post by Andrew
Fitbit on Android requires a Google Account (because Google acquired
Fitbit in 2021).
And you're /behave/ like you rather stupid. Most everyone else would
understand the implications of wanting to have replacements for Googles apps
also means that hardware only working with Googles apps also need to be
replaced. Heck, my initial reply already precluded that it all depends on
what people, you, would call a replacement. You (make it sound like you)
do not want to find a replacement for that bit of hardware*, and with it
sabotage your own question - which you have just shown to consider to be our
fault/problem. Way to go kid.

* /assuming/ that there are no replacement apps for it, something you have
not even tried to figure out ...

Also, you are again trying to gaslight us into believing that this is what
you actually asked - even though any kind reference to any kind of hardware
is absent from your initial question.

Did I already say that I don't like you ? Contortions like the above do
cause that resentment. You have zero problem with warping whatever is (not)
said into stuff with which you try to make it sound as if everyone else is
just too stupid to even look at you.

And by the way, I already mentioned that you don't *need* a FitBit to keep
track of your daily(?) excersise.

Bottom line: this nym of yours also goes in my killfile. Enjoy. :-)

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Jeff Layman
2025-01-01 19:40:57 UTC
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Post by R.Wieser
I replaced android with graphene OS. The phone is switched off unless I
need it (when traveling). Its main app is OsmAND, a map program.
I've always understood that GrapheneOS is Android that's been
"degoogled". You may have replaced the original Android OS in whatever
Pixel you're using with GrapheneOS, but it's still Android.
--
Jeff
R.Wieser
2025-01-01 20:16:03 UTC
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Jeff,
You may have replaced the original Android OS in whatever Pixel you're
using with GrapheneOS, but it's still Android.
Absolutily. Just like Googles tracking and adware-infested version of
android is just android. :-)
I've always understood that GrapheneOS is Android that's been "degoogled"
What about the possibility that some nitwit has come up with that
explanation, and instead GrapheneOS is a clean version of Android plus some
privacy and security stuff added to it ?

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Jeff Layman
2025-01-02 08:47:14 UTC
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Post by R.Wieser
Jeff,
You may have replaced the original Android OS in whatever Pixel you're
using with GrapheneOS, but it's still Android.
Absolutily. Just like Googles tracking and adware-infested version of
android is just android. :-)
I've always understood that GrapheneOS is Android that's been "degoogled"
What about the possibility that some nitwit has come up with that
explanation, and instead GrapheneOS is a clean version of Android plus some
privacy and security stuff added to it ?
Well, you might like to bet on that possibility but I most certainly
would not! Android is Google's baby and they spent a lot of time, money,
and effort bringing it up. I know that GrapheneOS has been reviewed and
the general view is that it is pretty good at what it does (interesting
discussion here:
<https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/i-dont-trust-pixel-graphene-where-are-the-authoritative-claims-of-its-credibility/17503/1>).
However, Android is said to have 12 million lines of code. Is it really
known to anyone outside Google what all of them do?
--
Jeff
R.Wieser
2025-01-02 10:46:59 UTC
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Jeff,
Post by Jeff Layman
However, Android is said to have 12 million lines of code. Is it really
known to anyone outside Google what all of them do?
Which is exactly why a sane person would not want to go and try to
de-google-ify it, and starting with a clean version would be a better idea.
Yes, I applied logic there.

Also, the parent spoke of "android" after which I tried to make him aware
that Googles android is something different than android. Yet, you speak
of "android" as if googles version of it is the base one. Do you have any
support for that ?

And by the way, I do not even think that the people inside Google know what
all of it does. :-)

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Jeff Layman
2025-01-02 21:04:37 UTC
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Post by R.Wieser
Jeff,
Post by Jeff Layman
However, Android is said to have 12 million lines of code. Is it really
known to anyone outside Google what all of them do?
Which is exactly why a sane person would not want to go and try to
de-google-ify it, and starting with a clean version would be a better idea.
Yes, I applied logic there.
Also, the parent spoke of "android" after which I tried to make him aware
that Googles android is something different than android. Yet, you speak
of "android" as if googles version of it is the base one. Do you have any
support for that ?
Well, Google didn't invent Android, but if you look at
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)#History>
you'll see that Android Inc started in 2000 and was going in the wrong
direction for 4 years (being developed as an OS for digital cameras).
They changed for a year to try to develop it as a mobile OS, but had
almost gone bust at one time. Google bought them out in 2005. The rest
is history.
(There is a slightly different account for the earliest years at
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_version_history#Overview>, but it
is not significantly different).

Effectively, unless you're going to suggest that the 20-years old
pre-Google Android is what Graphene and others developed their OS from,
it can /only/ have come from stripping down Google's Android.
Post by R.Wieser
And by the way, I do not even think that the people inside Google know what
all of it does. :-)
I don't disagree, but that's what happens over a long development time.
However, nobody else is better placed than those inside Google to know
what Android does. And that's what concerns me - who knows what
"innocent" code they've included that nobody else knows about? Have
Graphene and others /really/ looked through all the code and know what
it does?

On an unrelated point, I was surprised to see that GrapheneOS uses
automatic updates only. There's no choice - their OS is updated whether
you want it or not. That's not what I would have expected.
--
Jeff
VanguardLH
2025-01-03 00:40:10 UTC
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Post by Jeff Layman
I don't disagree, but that's what happens over a long development time.
However, nobody else is better placed than those inside Google to know
what Android does. And that's what concerns me - who knows what
"innocent" code they've included that nobody else knows about? Have
Graphene and others /really/ looked through all the code and know what
it does?
As a software QA tester, I would visit the programmer responsible for
the part of the software they were working on to ask about testing
procedure, and about what-if scenarios. Too often they didn't know, it
was someone else's coding job, but that guy only knew that code, and not
the entire product, and often the response to many what-if scenarios is
they wouldn't happen (but I can reproduce them then so can customers).

Too often the programmers would add "innocent" code they thought was
helpful, but didn't like when I required a new check-in code branch
which exposed their little changes, and their little fixups as a result.
When they made even a little change, we in QA had to come up with
testing for it, but the devs didn't document the changes in the
Functional or Engineering Spec docs, and we'd find it by accident. We
had weekly review meetings during development, and sometimes I'd ask a
question that had all the devs turning their heads, and no one offering
a response. Too many cooks making a meal.

I haven't heard that the Android OS or Graphene OS have had independent
audits despite they may be free open source. FOSS doesn't guarantee
anyone outside the dev team has inspected the code.
Jeff Layman
2025-01-03 09:10:19 UTC
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Post by VanguardLH
Post by Jeff Layman
I don't disagree, but that's what happens over a long development time.
However, nobody else is better placed than those inside Google to know
what Android does. And that's what concerns me - who knows what
"innocent" code they've included that nobody else knows about? Have
Graphene and others /really/ looked through all the code and know what
it does?
As a software QA tester, I would visit the programmer responsible for
the part of the software they were working on to ask about testing
procedure, and about what-if scenarios. Too often they didn't know, it
was someone else's coding job, but that guy only knew that code, and not
the entire product, and often the response to many what-if scenarios is
they wouldn't happen (but I can reproduce them then so can customers).
Too often the programmers would add "innocent" code they thought was
helpful, but didn't like when I required a new check-in code branch
which exposed their little changes, and their little fixups as a result.
When they made even a little change, we in QA had to come up with
testing for it, but the devs didn't document the changes in the
Functional or Engineering Spec docs, and we'd find it by accident. We
had weekly review meetings during development, and sometimes I'd ask a
question that had all the devs turning their heads, and no one offering
a response. Too many cooks making a meal.
Thanks for that; it rather confirms my suspicions. I guess there could
be code in their own AndroidOS that even "Google" doesn't know about.
Post by VanguardLH
I haven't heard that the Android OS or Graphene OS have had independent
audits despite they may be free open source. FOSS doesn't guarantee
anyone outside the dev team has inspected the code.
You might find these of interest:
<https://grapheneos.org/faq#audit>
<https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/i-dont-trust-pixel-graphene-where-are-the-authoritative-claims-of-its-credibility/17503>
<https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3448609>
--
Jeff
VanguardLH
2025-01-03 17:24:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by VanguardLH
I haven't heard that the Android OS or Graphene OS have had
independent audits despite they may be free open source. FOSS
doesn't guarantee anyone outside the dev team has inspected the
code.
<https://grapheneos.org/faq#audit>
<https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/i-dont-trust-pixel-graphene-where-are-the-authoritative-claims-of-its-credibility/17503>
<https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3448609>
Rather than claim the code has been audited, prove the claim by
referencing the audits. Anyone can say their code is audited. Again,
being open source doesn't mean *independent* audit. Nice to know,
though, their code is well documented.

AOSP projects are peered reviewed. Well, we had weekly code reviews,
but guess who was reviewing the code. They really didn't want QA
attending those meetings, and even we weren't outside auditors.
Independent audit means non-peer review.

A published paper describing how security (and only that facet) should
work in an OS is not an independent audit of the code. Just a
description of how it should work. Still, it's interesting reading.

While I've found no independent audits of GrapheneOS, I suspect any such
code reviews would be on Android (haven't found audits for that, either)
while any variations thereof would get passed over. Android has lots of
users. GrapheneOS not so much. I've seen guesses there are 175K
GrapheneOS users. Android is estimated at 3 billion.
R.Wieser
2025-01-03 06:32:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Jeff,
Post by Jeff Layman
Well, Google didn't invent Android, but if you look at
[Link #1]
[Link #2]

Thanks for that.
Post by Jeff Layman
Effectively, unless you're going to suggest that the 20-years old
pre-Google Android is what Graphene and others developed their OS
from, it can /only/ have come from stripping down Google's Android.
...
Post by Jeff Layman
And that's what concerns me - who knows what "innocent" code they've
included that nobody else knows about?
Thats where my "I applied logic there" came from.

But, if all is as you described it looks like the creators of GrapheneOS had
little choice than to strip Googles android. I always thought that a
basic Android was out there too.

I can only hope that Google didn't put its stuff into Androids Linux kernel
...
Post by Jeff Layman
On an unrelated point, I was surprised to see that GrapheneOS uses
automatic updates only. There's no choice - their OS is updated whether
you want it or not. That's not what I would have expected.
I was thinking of turning off automatic updating*, and would also be
negativily surprised not being able to find it.

* didn't yet look for it, as I consider that phone to be a tool, not a
computer on which I do, to me, important stuff (read: hobby programming).

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Jeff Layman
2025-01-03 09:28:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
I can only hope that Google didn't put its stuff into Androids Linux kernel
All phone manufacturers, including Google (for its Pixel), would
probably have to modify the kernel in order for it to work with whatever
hardware they've included in the phone. As the kernel would have to
interact with the OS, it's probable that Google (and Chinese suppliers
who were not allowed to use Google's AndroidOS, and so had to write
their own), had to rewrite parts of the kernel so it could do that.

The very first sentence of
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)> starts
"Android is a mobile operating system based on a *modified* version of
the Linux kernel..." (my emphasis!).
Post by R.Wieser
Post by Jeff Layman
On an unrelated point, I was surprised to see that GrapheneOS uses
automatic updates only. There's no choice - their OS is updated whether
you want it or not. That's not what I would have expected.
I was thinking of turning off automatic updating*, and would also be
negativily surprised not being able to find it.
<https://grapheneos.org/faq#updates>
Post by R.Wieser
* didn't yet look for it, as I consider that phone to be a tool, not a
computer on which I do, to me, important stuff (read: hobby programming).
Most of the general public use a cellphone as their only "computer".
Even if they once owned a desktop or laptop, changes to the telephone
system mean that they no longer bother with a router and broadband
connection.
--
Jeff
VanguardLH
2025-01-03 17:40:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jeff Layman
Most of the general public use a cellphone as their only "computer".
Even if they once owned a desktop or laptop, changes to the telephone
system mean that they no longer bother with a router and broadband
connection.
Yep, us desktop PC users are feeling like an endangered species: 40%
global web traffic compared to 58% for mobile devices (78% of which is
by Android users). Considering the toy computer it is, small display,
and lack of good input devices (unless you Bluetooth a keyboard and
mouse), I dislike web surfing on a phone. Still, it beats lugging a
laptop or notebook on a vacation. A big smartphone in a belt holster
beats toting around a bag with a laptop.

There must be some age break for those that do and don't suffer
nomophobia. Some folks have withdrawl symptoms if they don't have their
phone on them all the time.
Frank Slootweg
2025-01-03 18:36:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Jeff Layman
Most of the general public use a cellphone as their only "computer".
Even if they once owned a desktop or laptop, changes to the telephone
system mean that they no longer bother with a router and broadband
connection.
Yep, us desktop PC users are feeling like an endangered species: 40%
global web traffic compared to 58% for mobile devices (78% of which is
by Android users). Considering the toy computer it is, small display,
and lack of good input devices (unless you Bluetooth a keyboard and
mouse), I dislike web surfing on a phone. Still, it beats lugging a
laptop or notebook on a vacation. A big smartphone in a belt holster
beats toting around a bag with a laptop.
The "mobile devices" category probably includes tablets. IME, most
households which have mobile phones, also have tablets or/and laptops.
Post by VanguardLH
There must be some age break for those that do and don't suffer
nomophobia. Some folks have withdrawl symptoms if they don't have their
phone on them all the time.
"Some"!? :-)
Andrew
2025-01-02 18:25:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jeff Layman
Android is said to have 12 million lines of code. Is it really
known to anyone outside Google what all of them do?
Hi Jeff,

Happy New Year!

We've worked together on plenty of things in the past, so it's good to see
you back, where you must know that Rudy has an IQ no higher than about 50.

Anyway, regarding Graphene OS, it's my understanding, as it is yours, that
it's a de-googled Android, which, much like ungoogled chromium, starts with
the base code and, one by one, removes the data collection, blocks
tracking, and focuses on user control - all of which are good things.

As for me, I can't install GrapheneOS because my bootloader is not known to
be rootable - so the simplest alternative to Graphene OS is what I do now.

1. I never set up Android to have a Google account integral in Settings.
2. I delete every Google app and package that doesn't break the system.
3. I replace each Google functionality I like, with its private equivalent.

This works for me, but I'm more intelligent than most people on this ng
are, so it won't work for the vast majority of posters to this newsgroup.

But for those who own a modicum of knowledge, it's EASY to gain a huge leap
in privacy simply by performing a few extremely logical very simple acts.

A. Never allow the Google Account to become part of the Android settings.
B. Log into Google GMail using any privacy-aware MUA (plenty exist).
C. Log into the Google Play Store repo using a privacy-aware app finder.
D. Log into the Google YouTube database using a privacy-aware replacement.
E. Replace the Chrome browser with a privacy-aware replacement.
etc.

In my humblest of opinions, this is so logical and simple that anyone who
"complains" that they can't have privacy is simply stating that their IQ is
too low for them to understand the most basic simple components of privacy.

Specifically, people like Rudy complain that they can't have privacy but
what they're really telling us is their IQ is too low for them to
understand it.

So these low-IQ ignorant defeatists like Rudy claim, sans any evidence
whatsoever, that GrapheneOS is riddled with privacy holes, when it's not.

VanguardLH does the same thing. Their IQ is too low for them to understand.
Yours is not, thank God.
Frank Slootweg
2025-01-01 20:46:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Newyana2,
[...]
Post by R.Wieser
Post by Newyana2
I'm amazed that these companies are allowed, legally, to exert such
control over a device I paid for.
I hope you're not running Win10/11, which has become nothing more than a
thick ethernet client and doubling as an advertising platform. :-)
This is not a Windows group, so let's not drift too much, but you
still can use Windows 10 and 11 without a Microsoft account and if you
answer no to all the 'prying' questions or/and set all 'prying' settings
to off, you get *no* ads, not from Microsoft, nor from any other
company. *Unless* of course, you're an paranoid American, because then
you deserve to get what you spread FUD, urban legends, etc. about! :-)

[...]
Frank Slootweg
2025-01-01 15:23:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Theo,
Post by Theo
To use a Fitbit, you need a Google account
Which is a good reason no to use it.
I could imagine using an open-source or freeware map app in which you can
locally(!) record the path you've walked (and calculate/estimate the total
length of that path) ?
FTR, Fitbit *can* track your position/route, but only if you enable
that function (it can use its own GPS (if it has one) or use your
phone's GPS (if you carry it with you)). (I don't have that function
enabled.)

But as its name implies, its main function is as an activity tracker;
steps, (estimated) distance, (estimated) calories, heart rate, oxygen
saturation and sleep analysis.

As I mentioned before, 'smartwatches' are a different category of
devices, but the functions largely overlap, i.e. 'smartwatches' have
activity tracking and sleep analysis and 'activity trackers' are also
watches and somewhat 'smart.
VanguardLH
2025-01-01 16:08:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Theo,
Post by Theo
To use a Fitbit, you need a Google account
Which is a good reason no to use it.
And what would be the suggested alternative that does not require ANY
account anywhere while still just as robust, or even more robust, in
features? What is better than Fitbit, but with no account? Didn't
those extra/premium services require a Fitbit account (now a Google
account)? Do the better than Fitbit alternatives also have availability
of those extra services, too?

Google acquired Fitbit. Maybe that's why a Google account later became
required. Did/does Fitbit not allow storing of historical data to an
online account?

https://www.fitbit.com/global/us/technology/compatible-devices

A Google Account is required for all new users.

A Google Account is required to activate new Fitbit devices released
after the launch of Google Accounts for Fitbit.

Existing users have the option to use either a Google Account or their
existing Fitbit account until at least 2025 at which point they will
be required to use a Google Account for login.

So, Fitbit devices had a Fitbit account. Google acquired Fitbit, and
wanted to leverage their authentication services instead of maintaining
a setup in which they were never involved. There are premium services
that cost money, so I can see Google wanted payment to be controlled by
Google, not whatever Fitbit used before.

I had a Fitbit 2, and now a Fitbit Luxe. Doesn't upload anything to any
account. I never bought any premium services. I don't need all those
extras for how I use it. The only "extra" I enabled was to pair the
Fitbit to my smart phone via Bluetooth to transfer data from device to
Android app. Don't need an online account for that.

Fitbit is a company name that produces several models of mobile devices.
Maybe the Fitbit 2 and Luxe are considered too limited to bother with an
online account (whether it was with Fitbit or now with Google), or I
never upgraded to paid features which would then require an account.

https://support.google.com/fitbit/?visit_id=638713434358117766-3078936505&p=sp_hc_fitbit&rd=1#topic=14236398

From what I saw there, it isn't the device itself that mandates using a
Fitbit/Google account, but the app ran on the smart phone. However,
Fitbit upped the minimum supported Android version which eliminates my
phone (back on Android 8). I get "Not compatible" with my phone when I
visit the Play Store page for Fitbit. So, I cannot test if the app can
be installed, BT paired to the Fitbit Luxe, and not buy any premium
services to see if I'm forced to have a Google account. I don't recall
ever having a Fitbit account, because I never paid for any extra stuff
nor wanted to.

It looks like after Google's acquisition that new Fitbit devices via the
Android app must get registered.

https://support.google.com/product-documentation/answer/14226283?hl=en#:~:text=A%20Google%20Account%20is%20required%20to%20activate%20new%20Fitbit%20devices,a%20Google%20Account%20for%20login.

There it mentions Android 10 is the minimum, so my old phone is out.

When someone says "Fitbit", I think of the device on my wrist, not of
the app on a phone. I think "Fitbit" to the OP meant the app. I'm
still using the Fitbit device without any Fitbit app on my old phone.
The device still works by itself. I don't need "To make full use of the
Fitbit products and services", because I never used those extras. And
now their app won't install on my old phone, so the Fitbit device has
nowhere to communicate, anyway.

What are those extra "Fitbit services" that I never needed nor wanted?
When I did have the app, I never had to activate the device. I just
paired the device to the app, and that was it.
Theo
2025-01-01 17:07:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by R.Wieser
Theo,
Post by Theo
To use a Fitbit, you need a Google account
Which is a good reason no to use it.
And what would be the suggested alternative that does not require ANY
account anywhere while still just as robust, or even more robust, in
features? What is better than Fitbit, but with no account? Didn't
those extra/premium services require a Fitbit account (now a Google
account)? Do the better than Fitbit alternatives also have availability
of those extra services, too?
There are devices that are supported by Gadgetbridge, which need no account
and just sync via Bluetooth to the open source Gadgetbridge app on the
phone. I have no idea how they compare on features - that likely depends on
what you want it for (notifications v fitness v health v communications).
Post by VanguardLH
When someone says "Fitbit", I think of the device on my wrist, not of
the app on a phone. I think "Fitbit" to the OP meant the app. I'm
still using the Fitbit device without any Fitbit app on my old phone.
The device still works by itself. I don't need "To make full use of the
Fitbit products and services", because I never used those extras. And
now their app won't install on my old phone, so the Fitbit device has
nowhere to communicate, anyway.
It depends on the device, some have no display or a very basic display, and
some features are only available in the app (eg tracking trends).
Post by VanguardLH
What are those extra "Fitbit services" that I never needed nor wanted?
When I did have the app, I never had to activate the device. I just
paired the device to the app, and that was it.
You can't pair to the app without a Google account. 'Sign in' is the very
first screen.

Theo
VanguardLH
2025-01-01 17:55:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by VanguardLH
When I did have the app, I never had to activate the device. I just
paired the device to the app, and that was it.
You can't pair to the app without a Google account. 'Sign in' is the
very first screen.
Probably because Google decided to require registration of the devices,
and the app is of no use unless it gets paired to a device. Seems
overreaching to require registration of the devices that the user paid
for. This is not the situation where the devices are Google's property.
But their app is.

Google completed the $2.1B acquisition of Fitbit back in the start of
2021, but haven't required switching from a Fitbit account to a Google
account until 2025 (which is now). 2 years after acquisition Google
decided to discontinue the Fitbit smartwatches.

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/why-google-quietly-discontinuing-fitbit-170315663.html

So, what of the $2.1B is left for the Fitbit product line? Just the
health trackers?

Despite now mandating a login to a Google account to just install the
app, users are complaining the app doesn't stay logged in. They have to
repeatedly re-login. With all the troubles reported with the
Google-ized app, seems Google is also trying to kill off the rest of
their $2.1B outlay by killing off the other Fitbit devices in making
them too difficult to use with the app. Of course, fucking up the app
only affects those that feel compelled to use the device with an app.

I got spared the mandatory login requirement. Fitbit decided to up the
minimum supported Android version, and I wasn't buying a new phone just
to satisfy their moving requirements. The Fitbit device still works all
by itself. When I buy a toaster, I don't need an app to use it. I
never used the app other than to play with it at first. Interest waned,
and I uninstalled it. Later when I decided to trial it again, oops,
latest version no longer compatible with my old phone. Oh well, no loss
to me, anyway.
Frank Slootweg
2025-01-01 18:59:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
VanguardLH <***@nguard.lh> wrote:
[...]
Post by VanguardLH
I had a Fitbit 2, and now a Fitbit Luxe. Doesn't upload anything to any
account. I never bought any premium services. I don't need all those
extras for how I use it. The only "extra" I enabled was to pair the
Fitbit to my smart phone via Bluetooth to transfer data from device to
Android app. Don't need an online account for that.
I don't know what a "Fitbit 2" is, probably a "Fitbit <something> 2"
where "<something>" is the relevant part.

Anyway, I always needed a Fitbit account for our Fitbits (Alta HR,
Charge 4, Charge 5 and Charge 6). Without an account, the Fitbit won't
sync, also not to the Fitbit app on the phone. And to sync, it needs an
Internet connection. Stupid design, but that's the way it is.

So, on the phone, do you use the Fitbit app or another app, if so
which one?

I think my <insert_loved_one> has a Fitbit Luxe (on an iPhone). I've
to ask her what she needs to sync. I know they have a Fitbit Family
account together with her <insert_smaller_loved_one>.

[...]
Carlos E.R.
2025-01-01 19:31:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]
Post by VanguardLH
I had a Fitbit 2, and now a Fitbit Luxe. Doesn't upload anything to any
account. I never bought any premium services. I don't need all those
extras for how I use it. The only "extra" I enabled was to pair the
Fitbit to my smart phone via Bluetooth to transfer data from device to
Android app. Don't need an online account for that.
I don't know what a "Fitbit 2" is, probably a "Fitbit <something> 2"
where "<something>" is the relevant part.
Anyway, I always needed a Fitbit account for our Fitbits (Alta HR,
Charge 4, Charge 5 and Charge 6). Without an account, the Fitbit won't
sync, also not to the Fitbit app on the phone. And to sync, it needs an
Internet connection. Stupid design, but that's the way it is.
So, on the phone, do you use the Fitbit app or another app, if so
which one?
Google Fit.
Post by Frank Slootweg
I think my <insert_loved_one> has a Fitbit Luxe (on an iPhone). I've
to ask her what she needs to sync. I know they have a Fitbit Family
account together with her <insert_smaller_loved_one>.
[...]
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Frank Slootweg
2025-01-01 20:57:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]
Post by VanguardLH
I had a Fitbit 2, and now a Fitbit Luxe. Doesn't upload anything to any
account. I never bought any premium services. I don't need all those
extras for how I use it. The only "extra" I enabled was to pair the
Fitbit to my smart phone via Bluetooth to transfer data from device to
Android app. Don't need an online account for that.
I don't know what a "Fitbit 2" is, probably a "Fitbit <something> 2"
where "<something>" is the relevant part.
Anyway, I always needed a Fitbit account for our Fitbits (Alta HR,
Charge 4, Charge 5 and Charge 6). Without an account, the Fitbit won't
sync, also not to the Fitbit app on the phone. And to sync, it needs an
Internet connection. Stupid design, but that's the way it is.
So, on the phone, do you use the Fitbit app or another app, if so
which one?
Google Fit.
Are you sure? The Google Fit entry on the Google Play site [1] doesn't
even mention Fitbit in its list of devices and its website [2] doesn't
list any devices.

I always thought that *other* *apps* (not devices), could talk to
Google Fit and that Google Fit then showed a consolidation of all the
data.

IIRC, I used Google Fit in the past, but I can't remember with which
app/service/device.
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Frank Slootweg
I think my <insert_loved_one> has a Fitbit Luxe (on an iPhone). I've
to ask her what she needs to sync. I know they have a Fitbit Family
account together with her <insert_smaller_loved_one>.
[...]
[1]
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.fitness>

[2] <https://www.google.com/fit/>
Carlos E.R.
2025-01-01 21:55:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]
Post by VanguardLH
I had a Fitbit 2, and now a Fitbit Luxe. Doesn't upload anything to any
account. I never bought any premium services. I don't need all those
extras for how I use it. The only "extra" I enabled was to pair the
Fitbit to my smart phone via Bluetooth to transfer data from device to
Android app. Don't need an online account for that.
I don't know what a "Fitbit 2" is, probably a "Fitbit <something> 2"
where "<something>" is the relevant part.
Anyway, I always needed a Fitbit account for our Fitbits (Alta HR,
Charge 4, Charge 5 and Charge 6). Without an account, the Fitbit won't
sync, also not to the Fitbit app on the phone. And to sync, it needs an
Internet connection. Stupid design, but that's the way it is.
So, on the phone, do you use the Fitbit app or another app, if so
which one?
Google Fit.
Are you sure? The Google Fit entry on the Google Play site [1] doesn't
even mention Fitbit in its list of devices and its website [2] doesn't
list any devices.
I always thought that *other* *apps* (not devices), could talk to
Google Fit and that Google Fit then showed a consolidation of all the
data.
I don't know for sure where it gets its data from, but it is there.
Maybe Google Fit talks with Fitbit app.

I had that app installed from before, then one day I noticed that it had
data that seemed to come from the watch. Yes, looking there is displays
my siesta data as coming from Fitbit. It also shows the map of my walk
this afternoon, with a label that says "Fitbit".

In the details, it shows the elevation graph of the walk, something that
is missing in the Fitbit app.

I remember vaguely saying yes to share data, but I don't remember which
of the two apps. Maybe both.
Post by Frank Slootweg
IIRC, I used Google Fit in the past, but I can't remember with which
app/service/device.
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Frank Slootweg
I think my <insert_loved_one> has a Fitbit Luxe (on an iPhone). I've
to ask her what she needs to sync. I know they have a Fitbit Family
account together with her <insert_smaller_loved_one>.
[...]
[1]
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.fitness>
[2] <https://www.google.com/fit/>
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Frank Slootweg
2025-01-02 16:34:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Frank Slootweg
[...]
Post by VanguardLH
I had a Fitbit 2, and now a Fitbit Luxe. Doesn't upload anything to any
account. I never bought any premium services. I don't need all those
extras for how I use it. The only "extra" I enabled was to pair the
Fitbit to my smart phone via Bluetooth to transfer data from device to
Android app. Don't need an online account for that.
I don't know what a "Fitbit 2" is, probably a "Fitbit <something> 2"
where "<something>" is the relevant part.
Anyway, I always needed a Fitbit account for our Fitbits (Alta HR,
Charge 4, Charge 5 and Charge 6). Without an account, the Fitbit won't
sync, also not to the Fitbit app on the phone. And to sync, it needs an
Internet connection. Stupid design, but that's the way it is.
So, on the phone, do you use the Fitbit app or another app, if so
which one?
Google Fit.
Are you sure? The Google Fit entry on the Google Play site [1] doesn't
even mention Fitbit in its list of devices and its website [2] doesn't
list any devices.
I always thought that *other* *apps* (not devices), could talk to
Google Fit and that Google Fit then showed a consolidation of all the
data.
I don't know for sure where it gets its data from, but it is there.
Maybe Google Fit talks with Fitbit app.
I had that app installed from before, then one day I noticed that it had
data that seemed to come from the watch. Yes, looking there is displays
my siesta data as coming from Fitbit. It also shows the map of my walk
this afternoon, with a label that says "Fitbit".
In the details, it shows the elevation graph of the walk, something that
is missing in the Fitbit app.
I remember vaguely saying yes to share data, but I don't remember which
of the two apps. Maybe both.
Thanks.
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Frank Slootweg
IIRC, I used Google Fit in the past, but I can't remember with which
app/service/device.
I looked for my notes ("grep 'Google Fit' *" :-)) and it turns out I
tried Google Fit with Fitbit and Sleep as Android.

With Fitbit, Google Fit only showed distance, calories and steps.

With Sleep as Android, Google Fit only showed time-slept.

So for both Fitbit and Sleep as Android, the 'integration' with Google
Fit wasn't useful and I uninstalled Googlle Fit.
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Frank Slootweg
I think my <insert_loved_one> has a Fitbit Luxe (on an iPhone). I've
to ask her what she needs to sync. I know they have a Fitbit Family
account together with her <insert_smaller_loved_one>.
[...]
[1]
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.fitness>
[2] <https://www.google.com/fit/>
Andrew
2025-01-02 18:31:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
In the details, it shows the elevation graph of the walk, something that
is missing in the Fitbit app.
Luckily, we've solved the problem of replacing Google FitBit with
equivalent privacy-aware functionality in this new companion thread.

*For privacy, what is a suitable alternative to the Google FitBit app on Android?*
<https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=56645&group=comp.mobile.android#56645>

All it takes is a modicum of intelligence to replace FitBit features with
privacy-aware equivalent functionality (which doesn't involve the forfeit
of privacy by setting up a Google Account integral to the Android system).

For example,
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.secuso.privacyfriendlyactivitytracker>
Carlos E.R.
2025-01-02 20:24:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Carlos E.R.
In the details, it shows the elevation graph of the walk, something
that is missing in the Fitbit app.
Luckily, we've solved the problem of replacing Google FitBit with
equivalent privacy-aware functionality in this new companion thread.
*For privacy, what is a suitable alternative to the Google FitBit app on Android?*
<https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?
id=56645&group=comp.mobile.android#56645>
All it takes is a modicum of intelligence to replace FitBit features with
privacy-aware equivalent functionality (which doesn't involve the forfeit
of privacy by setting up a Google Account integral to the Android system).
For example,
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?
id=org.secuso.privacyfriendlyactivitytracker>
Have you verified that it talks with the fitbit smart watches and gets
ALL the data? AFAIK, that Pedometer only does that, pedometry.

Removing the privacy group, which you added silently.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
VanguardLH
2025-01-02 08:02:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Frank Slootweg
I always thought that *other* *apps* (not devices), could talk to
Google Fit and that Google Fit then showed a consolidation of all the
data.
There is the Health Connect app, also from Google, which describes
itself as linking health data from multiple apps. Seems to be a health
app data aggregator, but I've never used it to be sure.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.healthdata
"Health Connect by Android gives you a simple way to share data between
your health, fitness, and wellbeing apps without compromising on
privacy."

Of course, Andrew isn't going to believe anything regarding privacy when
Google is involved.
Carlos E.R.
2025-01-02 14:26:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Frank Slootweg
I always thought that *other* *apps* (not devices), could talk to
Google Fit and that Google Fit then showed a consolidation of all the
data.
There is the Health Connect app, also from Google, which describes
itself as linking health data from multiple apps. Seems to be a health
app data aggregator, but I've never used it to be sure.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.healthdata
"Health Connect by Android gives you a simple way to share data between
your health, fitness, and wellbeing apps without compromising on
privacy."
I don't think it is actually an app. I think I have it installed, but it
does not show in the list of apps. Ah, wait, it is called "Salud
connect" here. Yet the list of apps doesn't list it, but google play
says it is installed and offers to open it. It may be a configuration
applet showing inside of the setup wheel - no, it is not there. I can
only start it from google play.
Post by VanguardLH
Of course, Andrew isn't going to believe anything regarding privacy when
Google is involved.
:-)
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Andrew
2025-01-02 18:42:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Of course, Andrew isn't going to believe anything regarding privacy when
Google is involved.
Hi VanguardLH,

You're wrong. Again.

Rest assured I've read everything you've posted to this newsgroup for
years, where I'm well aware your IQ is below normal, so be aware please
that you can't possibly comprehend *any* approach to privacy on Android.

Most people are too stupid to understand the implications of privacy.
That's why people like Rudy & Chris & Carlos simply give up on privacy.

It's too complicated for them.
And for you.

All of you hate that you're stupid; so you blame me for your ignorance.
So be it.

Suffice to say you always guess - and you always guess wrong, VanguardLH.
I've told you that before - but your mind can't handle basic facts.

Rest assured I have *plenty* of Google Accounts, VanguardLH. Tons of them.

So you *can* have privacy even when a Google Account is involved.
I realize your IQ is so low you can't comprehend that statement.

But it's true.

The *biggest* step toward privacy when Google is involved is to never use
the three Google apps which automatically infest Android with an account.

Again, I realize that simple statement, obvious as it is, is still too
advanced for your low-IQ brain to fathom - but rest assured, it's true.

As long as you avoid those (easily avoided) 3 Google apps, you're off to a
good start on obtaining privacy on Android without Google tracking you.

To the original topic, which takes at least an average IQ to comprehend, so
far nobody yet has found even a single Google app that can't be replaced by
a privacy-aware app - and which doesn't infest Android with an account.

Can you?
Carlos E.R.
2025-01-02 20:25:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by VanguardLH
Of course, Andrew isn't going to believe anything regarding privacy when
Google is involved.
Hi VanguardLH,
You're wrong. Again.
Rest assured I've read everything you've posted to this newsgroup for
years, where I'm well aware your IQ is below normal,
Insulting again. Not reading the rest of the post.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Andrew
2025-01-03 04:42:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
Not reading the rest of the post.
The fact remains VanguardLH does NOT know the difference between a Google
login on the Internet versus a Google account integral with the phone.

Who on earth, is *that* stupid, Carlos?
Given that obvious fact, I ascribed an IQ of about 50 to VanguardLH.

What IQ do you calculate for people on this ng *that* stupid, Carlos?
And do YOU know the difference yourself, Carlos?

I suspect not.
Carlos E.R.
2025-01-03 10:48:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Carlos E.R.
Not reading the rest of the post.
The fact remains VanguardLH does NOT know the difference between a Google
login on the Internet versus a Google account integral with the phone.
Who on earth, is *that* stupid, Carlos?
Insulting again.

No read.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Frank Slootweg
2025-01-03 16:23:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Andrew
Post by Carlos E.R.
Not reading the rest of the post.
The fact remains VanguardLH does NOT know the difference between a Google
login on the Internet versus a Google account integral with the phone.
Who on earth, is *that* stupid, Carlos?
Insulting again.
Not only insulting, but insulting, as usual, based on his
*mis*representation of someone's *actual* position/comments/non-
comments/etc..

Misrepresenation due to malice or stupidity? What about *both*?
Post by Carlos E.R.
No read.
I *cannot* read what my news server rejects! :-)
R.Wieser
2025-01-03 18:58:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Carlos,
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Andrew
The fact remains VanguardLH does NOT know the difference between a Google
login on the Internet versus a Google account integral with the phone.
Who on earth, is *that* stupid, Carlos?
Insulting again.
Besides goading you with the *suggestion* /he/ does know - but somehow
forgot to tell.

Funny that: No tutorials of his we can look at, nothing to(dis)agree with
here. Its almost as if he's trying to hide something ...

Obvious games are obvious.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
VanguardLH
2025-01-02 07:56:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Frank Slootweg
Anyway, I always needed a Fitbit account for our Fitbits (Alta HR,
Charge 4, Charge 5 and Charge 6). Without an account, the Fitbit won't
sync, also not to the Fitbit app on the phone. And to sync, it needs an
Internet connection. Stupid design, but that's the way it is.
Only if you need the Fitbit device to sync somewhere. Fitbit upped the
minimum Android version, so I couldn't use it anymore. For many months
now, the Fitbit device still works all by itself. The app gives you
more, but I really didn't need more.
Post by Frank Slootweg
So, on the phone, do you use the Fitbit app or another app, if so
which one?
Fitbit cut me off on compatibility with my old phone with its old
Android 8 version. Don't remember when that happened, maybe over a year
ago, so I've just been using the Fitbit Luxe wrist device without any
sync to anywhere. If I wanted to manually log its data, well, Excel
works. My BPM (Blood Pressure Meter) has Bluetooth and a phone app, but
I don't bother, and just enter the readings into a spreadsheet. The
spreadsheet shows history, and I added trend lines. However, I've never
bothered recording externally the data from the Fitbit device.

The app adds extras, and some convenience for tracking (history). I
don't need them. Others feel they must. I only wear mine at the gym.
Frank Slootweg
2025-01-01 11:59:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
For example, YouTube app functionality can be replaced by the open-source
NewPipe app, which does NOT need a Google Account set up on the phone.
Just using https://m.youtube.com/ would likely be good enough for most
people
To use a Fitbit, you need a Google account (unless you have a legacy Fitbit
account from years ago). To use the Fitbit app you need to sign in with the
Google account, which installs the Google account centrally on the phone,
which means that account infests the rest of the OS and gets used for other
stuff (eg Play Services/Store).
Are you sure about that? Can't you just use a Google account to login
into the *app*, instead of into the *system*/OS? Many apps have such
functionality, i.e. an app-specific login, so I wouldn't know why the
Fitbit app would be any different.

FWIW, we still have legacy Fitbit accounts and are not going to
convert to Google accounts until we have to.
Post by Theo
If your phone vendor supports 'user profiles' you can make a new profile,
add the Google account there. Then it won't interfere with other profiles
and you can terminate the session by logging out after you're done.
Theo
2025-01-01 16:57:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Theo
To use a Fitbit, you need a Google account (unless you have a legacy Fitbit
account from years ago). To use the Fitbit app you need to sign in with the
Google account, which installs the Google account centrally on the phone,
which means that account infests the rest of the OS and gets used for other
stuff (eg Play Services/Store).
Are you sure about that? Can't you just use a Google account to login
into the *app*, instead of into the *system*/OS? Many apps have such
functionality, i.e. an app-specific login, so I wouldn't know why the
Fitbit app would be any different.
It shows under Settings -> Accounts, and the Play Store uses it without
asking. There's no way to sign out of it apart from deleting it from the
phone. If I do that the Fitbit app stops working and wants a sign in again.

Theo
Frank Slootweg
2025-01-01 21:32:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Theo
To use a Fitbit, you need a Google account (unless you have a
legacy Fitbit account from years ago). To use the Fitbit app you
need to sign in with the Google account, which installs the Google
account centrally on the phone, which means that account infests
the rest of the OS and gets used for other stuff (eg Play
Services/Store).
Are you sure about that? Can't you just use a Google account to login
into the *app*, instead of into the *system*/OS? Many apps have such
functionality, i.e. an app-specific login, so I wouldn't know why the
Fitbit app would be any different.
It shows under Settings -> Accounts, and the Play Store uses it without
asking. There's no way to sign out of it apart from deleting it from the
phone. If I do that the Fitbit app stops working and wants a sign in again.
So you already had a Google account on the phone and used that for the
Fitbit app, so you can no longer remove the account from the phone
(Settings) and use the Fitbit app with the *same* Google account.

But the scenario I was talking about was: Phone *without* a Google
account (after all, that's the subject of this thread). User wants to
use Fitbit app. Fitbit app wants a Google account. My suggestion:
Create/have a Google account, do *not* use it for the *phone* (i.e. it's
not in Settings) and just use it to login into the *Fitbit app*. I see
no reason why that shouldn't work.
Theo
2025-01-01 22:33:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Theo
Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Theo
To use a Fitbit, you need a Google account (unless you have a
legacy Fitbit account from years ago). To use the Fitbit app you
need to sign in with the Google account, which installs the Google
account centrally on the phone, which means that account infests
the rest of the OS and gets used for other stuff (eg Play
Services/Store).
Are you sure about that? Can't you just use a Google account to login
into the *app*, instead of into the *system*/OS? Many apps have such
functionality, i.e. an app-specific login, so I wouldn't know why the
Fitbit app would be any different.
It shows under Settings -> Accounts, and the Play Store uses it without
asking. There's no way to sign out of it apart from deleting it from the
phone. If I do that the Fitbit app stops working and wants a sign in again.
So you already had a Google account on the phone and used that for the
Fitbit app, so you can no longer remove the account from the phone
(Settings) and use the Fitbit app with the *same* Google account.
But the scenario I was talking about was: Phone *without* a Google
account (after all, that's the subject of this thread). User wants to
Create/have a Google account, do *not* use it for the *phone* (i.e. it's
not in Settings) and just use it to login into the *Fitbit app*. I see
no reason why that shouldn't work.
No, I had no Google account anywhere on the phone. The Fitbit account
wanted me to 'Sign in with Google'. This also *signed in the whole phone
with Google* (ie Play Store, everything). If I removed that account from
the phone in Settings -> Accounts, the Fitbit app wasn't signed in and
wanted to 'Sign in with Google'. Around the circle we go.

The only way to avoid this is to create a separate user profile and install
the Fitbit app into it (as the only app besides the system apps). That
signs that whole profile into Google, but doesn't affect the apps installed
in other profiles. When are done with the Fitbit app, stop that profile and
go back to your other profile that has no Google account in it. This only
works if your phone OEM has enabled user profiles.

Theo
Andrew
2025-01-02 05:31:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
No, I had no Google account anywhere on the phone. The Fitbit account
wanted me to 'Sign in with Google'. This also *signed in the whole phone
with Google* (ie Play Store, everything). If I removed that account from
the phone in Settings -> Accounts, the Fitbit app wasn't signed in and
wanted to 'Sign in with Google'. Around the circle we go.
The only way to avoid this is to create a separate user profile and install
the Fitbit app into it (as the only app besides the system apps). That
signs that whole profile into Google, but doesn't affect the apps installed
in other profiles. When are done with the Fitbit app, stop that profile and
go back to your other profile that has no Google account in it. This only
works if your phone OEM has enabled user profiles.
I tested this and Theo is correct as far as my empirical tests showed.
<https://i.postimg.cc/7ZRtbdHN/fitbit01.jpg>

My test just now was...

1. I never had a Google Account set up on my Android phone even as
I have many Google Accounts which I log into on my Android phone.

2. Anonymously, without using the Google Play Store app, I used the
canonical FOSS Google Play Store replacement app to install FitBit.

3. This anonymously installed the exact same FitBit app from the exact
same Google Play Store repo that a Google Play Store app would install.

When I tried to use that Google FitBit app from the Google Play Store repo,
the Google FitBit app gave me the choice of logging into FitBit or Google.

The choice of FitBit apparently requires a pre-existing FitBit account.
Which I don't have. (I don't even know what FitBit does in fact.)

My only choice was the Google login, which, surprise, did exactly what Theo
said it would do - and it said it would do it - it *infests* the Android
phone with a Google Account even when there is no Google Account integral
to Android settings (in Settings > Accounts and backup > Manage accounts).
<https://i.postimg.cc/x1NZwj5G/account02.jpg>

This means we need to find an alternative (hopefully open-source) to FitBit
if we wish to have any possibility of privacy when using it with Android:

*For privacy, what is a suitable alternative to the Google FitBit app on Android?*
<https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=56645&group=comp.mobile.android#56645>

BTW, what does FitBit do?
Whatever it does - that's what we want to find a FOSS replacement for.
VanguardLH
2025-01-01 15:29:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
To use a Fitbit, you need a Google account (unless you have a legacy Fitbit
account from years ago). To use the Fitbit app you need to sign in with the
Google account, which installs the Google account centrally on the phone,
which means that account infests the rest of the OS and gets used for other
stuff (eg Play Services/Store).
If your phone vendor supports 'user profiles' you can make a new profile,
add the Google account there. Then it won't interfere with other profiles
and you can terminate the session by logging out after you're done.
I thought all accounts were globally defined. That's why when you add a
new app with an existing account, it is found from the list in Android.
Any app having you add another account then adds it to the Accounts list
in Android. Not just Fitbit does this.

Android settings -> General -> Accounts
Frank Slootweg
2025-01-01 16:14:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Theo
To use a Fitbit, you need a Google account (unless you have a legacy Fitbit
account from years ago). To use the Fitbit app you need to sign in with the
Google account, which installs the Google account centrally on the phone,
which means that account infests the rest of the OS and gets used for other
stuff (eg Play Services/Store).
If your phone vendor supports 'user profiles' you can make a new profile,
add the Google account there. Then it won't interfere with other profiles
and you can terminate the session by logging out after you're done.
I thought all accounts were globally defined. That's why when you add a
new app with an existing account, it is found from the list in Android.
Any app having you add another account then adds it to the Accounts list
in Android. Not just Fitbit does this.
Android settings -> General -> Accounts
And those accounts are only accounts on your *phone* (i.e. in
Settings) if the app so chooses. For example I have apps for several
airlines and for only one of them (KLM! :-)) the account shows up under
'Accounts and backup' in Settings.

And BTW, Fitbit is *not* listed in my list of accounts (but as I said
before, I still have a legacy (non-Google) Fitbit account).
Andrew
2025-01-02 05:17:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by VanguardLH
Android settings -> General -> Accounts
And those accounts are only accounts on your *phone* (i.e. in
Settings) if the app so chooses. For example I have apps for several
airlines and for only one of them (KLM! :-)) the account shows up under
'Accounts and backup' in Settings.
And BTW, Fitbit is *not* listed in my list of accounts (but as I said
before, I still have a legacy (non-Google) Fitbit account).
This thread has two separate components, to date:
A. What Google apps cannot be replaced with private equivalents, and,
B. Which Google apps are the most dangerous in terms of privacy loss?
(As those are the critical Google apps to define replacements for!)

For the latter question, and with the useful information provided by Theo,
we now collectively know of three Google apps which infest the Android
operating system with a system-wide integral account - which - wipes out
any chance of privacy (which means we need to find a FitBit replacement).

Google apps which automatically infest Android with a SETTINGS account:
1. Google Gmail app (luckily which is easily replaced with a FOSS MUA)
2. Google Voice app (probably which can be replaced by some other VOIP)
3. Google FitBit app (maybe which may have an open source replacement)

So that we all learn from the dialogue, do you know of any others Frank?
Andrew
2025-01-02 01:14:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
To use a Fitbit, you need a Google account (unless you have a legacy Fitbit
account from years ago). To use the Fitbit app you need to sign in with the
Google account, which installs the Google account centrally on the phone,
which means that account infests the rest of the OS and gets used for other
stuff (eg Play Services/Store).
If your phone vendor supports 'user profiles' you can make a new profile,
add the Google account there. Then it won't interfere with other profiles
and you can terminate the session by logging out after you're done.
Only Theo, so far, seems to understand that simple fact, so everything
said, so far, is off topic except what Theo said about FitBit.

Nobody else who posted seems to understand these are NOT the same thing:
1. An account on the Internet (often which requires a login/password)
2. That account as an integral part of the Android operating system

Those are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS which only Theo understood, sadly.
<Loading Image...>

Think of it this way if you must:
a. A bank app might require an account (which often requires login/passwd)
b. But that bank account is NOT an integral part of the Android OS

Only Theo answered the question on topic.
Nobody else even understood what was being asked (sadly).
<Loading Image...>
Carlos E.R.
2025-01-01 18:52:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
I need my bank app, which I'm sure checks for the google environment. I
know that payment by phone is done using Google Wallet, and phone to
phone payment via Bizum; both require the google auth. Besides that, I
use a Fitbit watch, and that also requires a login. My car GPS depends
on Android Auto, and runs other google apps and tools.

So no, I'm not interested in finding out what I can do without a login
to google.

Good luck igniting another flame war, Arlen :-)
--
Cheers, Carlos.
R.Wieser
2025-01-01 20:05:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Carlos,
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
...
Post by Carlos E.R.
Good luck igniting another flame war, Arlen :-)
I think you are misjudging arlen here. Its more than likely he really wants
to know what he asked for.

The only problem is that he's, as so often, not really thinking about the
impossibility of *what* he's asking. It will take an exorbitant ammount of
time to go thru *all* the available google apps and trying to find
replacements for them, just to come up with the (short)list he actually
wants.

And damnit, does /everyone/ here know that Andrew is the next nym of Arlen ?
I thought I was the only one here who knew that. :-)

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Frank Slootweg
2025-01-01 20:49:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Carlos,
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
...
Post by Carlos E.R.
Good luck igniting another flame war, Arlen :-)
I think you are misjudging arlen here. Its more than likely he really wants
to know what he asked for.
And I have a 300-meter steel tower in Paris for sale, real cheap,
honest!
Andrew
2025-01-02 05:50:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
So no, I'm not interested in finding out what I can do without a login
to google.
Hi Carlos,

The question has absolutely nothing to do with "a login to google".

The question is about replacement functionality with inherent privacy.
YouTube ====> replaced by ====> NewPipe
Chrome ====> replaced by ====> Ungoogled Chromium (or Bromite)
Google Play Store ====> replaced by ====> Aurora
Gmail app ====> replaced by ====> FairEmail MUA (or similar)
etc.

I have plenty of Google logins. This question has nothing to do with Google
logins per se - as it has to do with a Google Account set up as an integral
component deeply ensconced in Android. That's a very important distinction.

They're completely different things, Carlos.
Especially in terms of their privacy implications.

Because people forfeit their right to privacy the instant they define a
Google Account as an integral part of the Android operating system.

But IMHO, Android works just fine WITHOUT that parasitic Google Account.

Luckily most Google apps do NOT create a Google Account on the phone.
For example, Chrome doesn't. Neither does YouTube. Nor does Google Maps.

But some Google apps do infest Android with an integral Google Account.
1. GMail app (which is easily replaced with the FairEmail MUA)
2. Google Voice app (which can be replaced by another VOIP app)
3. FitBit app (which Theo informed us also infests Android settings)

Anything else, Carlos?

It is my premise that there is no useful Google app that doesn't have an
equivalent (usually FOSS equivalent) that avoids the privacy issues.

The purpose of this thread is to find out if that premise is correct.
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
Andrew
2025-01-02 06:00:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
And damnit, does /everyone/ here know that Andrew is the next nym of Arlen ?
I thought I was the only one here who knew that. :-)
Hi Rudy,

I'm still the same purposefully helpful kind & caring poster I always was.

I post here for a decade with the *same* images, the same phone for years,
the same posting style, the same quest for privacy, the same love of
Android, the same kind and helpful attitude to those who deserve it, etc.

I'm still in the Santa Cruz mountains. I still have the same phone.
I still answer people's questions using my vast knowledge, etc.

I'm the same kind-hearted humble Usenet servant I always was.

If it takes someone more than two seconds to figure out my posts, then
there's something wrong - because I don't hide who I am from anyone here.

Nothing changed except the wrapping paper on the gift of the present.
If that fools anyone, then there's something very wrong with them.

Look at these screenshots I post for example. Nobody but me does that.
<Loading Image...> HNS stop/start solution
<Loading Image...> Windows Update is the problem
<Loading Image...> net stop hns & net start hns
<Loading Image...> Android assigns random ports
<Loading Image...> Nobody can find locked ports
<Loading Image...> Windows Update locks ports
<Loading Image...> Connect over Wi-Fi sans USB
<Loading Image...> Compare Vysor to scrcpy
<Loading Image...> Android SMS/MMS on Windows
<Loading Image...> Vysor IP address option
<Loading Image...> Windows Drive: === Android
<Loading Image...> Start /b as a CMD works! :)
<Loading Image...> Start /b TARGET fails :(
<Loading Image...> Free Automation APKs
<Loading Image...> AutoIT & IFFT & Automate
<Loading Image...> powershell hide-console trick
<Loading Image...> Trick to pin batch shortcut
<Loading Image...> AppPath & shortcut TARGET
<Loading Image...> No scrcpy console window!
<Loading Image...> REG test of showwin.lnk
<Loading Image...> Shortcut test of showwin.lnk
<Loading Image...> The console came up :(
<Loading Image...> REG test of showwin.bat
<Loading Image...> CMD test of showwin.bat
<Loading Image...> Android mnt as drive letter
<Loading Image...> Press two hardware buttons
<Loading Image...> Drag APK from Windows
<Loading Image...> Extraneous cmd window (&)
<Loading Image...> The efficient setup explained
<Loading Image...> An efficient program setup
<Loading Image...> Mirror Android on any PC

If it takes anyone more than a second to figure out my posts, there's
something very wrong - as the only ones who exclaim "I FOUND YOU!!!!!"
are usually the trolls who only care about the wrapping paper and not the
beauty of the vast knowledge inherent in the value imparted in the body.
R.Wieser
2025-01-02 10:35:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Andrew,
Post by Andrew
Post by R.Wieser
And damnit, does /everyone/ here know that Andrew is the next nym of
Arlen ? I thought I was the only one here who knew that. :-)
Hi Rudy,
I'm still the same purposefully helpful kind & caring poster I always was.
:-D I remember you thru the years. Heck, your previous post already
paints a different picture.

You are "purposely" allright, just not "helpfull" or "caring". Instead,
everyone else need to be helpfull *to you* - just like with your current
question - and could not care less about offending pretty-much everyone by
stating that nobody but one understood what you where "actually" out for.

Heck, I was pleasantly surprised when you, in the "Shortcut to Bluetooth
Tethering?" thread, where able to comprise a tutorial (of sorts) of just 4
steps. Even though you implicitily called s|b stupid thruout that post.
Yeah, you really sounded "caring" there. :-(
Post by Andrew
I post here for a decade with the *same* images, the same phone for years,
the same posting style, the same quest for privacy, the same love of
Android, the same kind and helpful attitude to those who deserve it, etc.
Yeah, I remember your "tutorials". For the ones I've seen they are
convoluted, mixing different, unrelated subjects and sometimes even stopped
short of any kind of a conclusion. I also remember when you posted a list
of links, and I went thru them pointing out the problems with them. You
could not have cared less. The same thing happens in this thread: you
could not care less that I was trying to actually help you (without thumping
my chest and letting the whole world know) to get /some/ kind of answer to
your stated question.
Post by Andrew
I'm still in the Santa Cruz mountains. I still have the same phone.
I still answer people's questions using my vast knowledge, etc.
And you still change your nym once in a while, making it impossible for
others to find your older contributions - and refuse to "deep link" to the
relevant ones in those fora you recently linked to (same thread as above).

And wonder-upon-wonder, s|b recognised you where likely sending him on a
wild goose chase, and told you he would not go along with that.

Your response ? A number of posts deeper calling everybody morons, still
refusing to post a direct link to what you /hinted/ should be in that
forum - pretty-much confirming his suspicion.

You said there that you're "frustrated trying to help people like you",
while your behaviour tells us that you're not really trying to help others,
but instead are spinning tales about what all you know and do to make it
sound as if you are something special. You're not. There are lots of
people here, and chances are that at least some of those know more about
certain subjects than you do.

I remember where you tried to tell someone who had serious job experience on
some subject that you knew better - a claim you did not bother to support.
Post by Andrew
I'm the same kind-hearted humble Usenet servant I always was.
Don't lie to yourself like that. Just like now you have, effectivily,
demanded that all others here do all the work providing you with
replacements for all the Google apps. You consider yourself to be the
Master, with us here being peons.
Post by Andrew
If it takes someone more than two seconds to figure out my posts, then
there's something wrong - because I don't hide who I am from anyone here.
Besides you again lying to us (you change your nym ever so often), you are
*again* mixing two unrelated subjects together and trying to make it sounds
as if they are.

As for how easy to understand your posts are ? I had no problem
understanding what your initial question was asking for - and how impossible
it was (funny that with all your knowledge you still are not able to realize
that). And than you made it sound as if that question, asking us to come
up with replacements for google apps, was /not at all/ what you where
actually asking, and that it was about a FitBit all along.

Yeah, nobody here notices that kind of shennigans. :-)
Post by Andrew
Nothing changed except the wrapping paper on the gift of the present.
If that fools anyone, then there's something very wrong with them.
Only a fool will be convinced that when everyone does/believes something
else than himself it must be those others that are at fault.
Post by Andrew
Look at these screenshots I post for example. Nobody but me does that.
Luckely so I would say. I remember a list of your "tutorials" of years
ago where I made mince-meat of each-and-every-one of them. Convoluted and
confusing, mixing unrelated subjects and sometimes not even coming to a
conclusion.

And posting *screenshots* ? Why ? Whats wrong with just posting links ?
Yeah, posting an image of where you claim to have successfully tackeled an
undescribed problem does tell us /so much/ about your prowess. No, really.
/s

"Nobody can find locked ports". Lol. Who posted that info (on the internet
or perhaps even usenet) for you to find (making a mockery of your "nobody")
? Or did you just go thu all the "help pages" netsh gives you when you
use the "/?" argument ? Yeah, nobody else did that ever. /s

"Trick to pin batch shortcut" And ? What is your conclusion to why it
works that way ? *That* would be interresting to people to know, so they
can use the same method to pin other, unpinnable stuff.

"No scrcpy console window!" The last time I checked (just a few seconds
ago) I could just press alt + print screen and paste the result into Paint.

Ofcourse, without access to your tutotial (with its problem description and
how you solved it with that batch file) its hard to say much about how good
(or bad) your solution is - or if the, my, screenshot method would solve
anything.

"Extraneous cmd window (&)" The actual question in the image is "how do you
put this command window in the background". The answer is : You don't.
Windows does not have support for it.

I can't see in that image what the solution is you arrived on (if any), but
I do see you still do not trim down the problem to what the problem states
(what has "sceencopy properties" to do with anything. Or "deamon not
running"), making it cumbersome for anyone to duplicate your problem (and
help you to find a (better) solution).

"REG test of showwin.bat" I see you still keep abusing that "app path"
registry "solution".

Oh well, I'm not really surprised that you do not seem to have learned
anything more about creating helpfull material since we spoke all those
years ago. Even this list of screenshots (that are likely part of some
"tutorials") show what a mess you still make of things (and are activily
hiding anything that could give us insight to your solutions).
Post by Andrew
If it takes anyone more than a second to figure out my posts, there's
something very wrong - as the only ones who exclaim "I FOUND YOU!!!!!"
are usually the trolls who only care about the wrapping paper and not the
beauty of the vast knowledge inherent in the value imparted in the body.
You refuse to post links to to "the beauty of the vast knowledge" you claim
you have posted somewhere, even when someone directly asks you for them.

Kiddo, you keep doing you. Forgive me if I put you, again, into my
"killfile" so that I do not need to read all your grand-standing and rubbish
"tutorials".

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Carlos E.R.
2025-01-02 14:55:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Andrew,
Post by Andrew
Post by R.Wieser
And damnit, does /everyone/ here know that Andrew is the next nym of
Arlen ? I thought I was the only one here who knew that. :-)
Hi Rudy,
I'm still the same purposefully helpful kind & caring poster I always was.
:-D I remember you thru the years. Heck, your previous post already
paints a different picture.
You are "purposely" allright, just not "helpfull" or "caring". Instead,
everyone else need to be helpfull *to you* - just like with your current
question - and could not care less about offending pretty-much everyone by
stating that nobody but one understood what you where "actually" out for.
Caring? When he doesn't like what we say, he turns to insulting us.
Post by R.Wieser
Heck, I was pleasantly surprised when you, in the "Shortcut to Bluetooth
Tethering?" thread, where able to comprise a tutorial (of sorts) of just 4
steps. Even though you implicitily called s|b stupid thruout that post.
Yeah, you really sounded "caring" there. :-(
I don't accept said tutorials unless they are posted on a fixed web
site, not a forum with a collection of posts. Properly indexed.
Post by R.Wieser
Post by Andrew
I post here for a decade with the *same* images, the same phone for years,
the same posting style, the same quest for privacy, the same love of
Android, the same kind and helpful attitude to those who deserve it, etc.
Yeah, I remember your "tutorials". For the ones I've seen they are
convoluted, mixing different, unrelated subjects and sometimes even stopped
short of any kind of a conclusion. I also remember when you posted a list
of links, and I went thru them pointing out the problems with them. You
could not have cared less. The same thing happens in this thread: you
could not care less that I was trying to actually help you (without thumping
my chest and letting the whole world know) to get /some/ kind of answer to
your stated question.
Post by Andrew
I'm still in the Santa Cruz mountains. I still have the same phone.
I still answer people's questions using my vast knowledge, etc.
And you still change your nym once in a while, making it impossible for
others to find your older contributions - and refuse to "deep link" to the
relevant ones in those fora you recently linked to (same thread as above).
Right.

...
--
Cheers, Carlos.
R.Wieser
2025-01-02 16:26:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Carlos,
Post by Carlos E.R.
Caring? When he doesn't like what we say, he turns to insulting us.
Yep. In all those years I've known him he hasn't changed a bit in that
regard. That, and his expectation that we do all his work for him.
Post by Carlos E.R.
I don't accept said tutorials unless they are posted on a fixed web site,
not a forum with a collection of posts. Properly indexed.
Although its ofcourse nice to have permalinks, even the ones that are ment
as such can break given enough time (nothing is forever). As such I, when
its looks worthwhile or even just interresting, have the habit of copying
the offered information to my local machine.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Andrew
2025-01-02 18:51:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
Although its ofcourse nice to have permalinks, even the ones that are ment
as such can break given enough time (nothing is forever). As such I, when
its looks worthwhile or even just interresting, have the habit of copying
the offered information to my local machine.
Hi Rudy & Carlos,

Rest assured I'm well aware your entire lives you've been told you were
stupid, which has never happened to me - so we're entirely different types.

I'm intelligent. You're not.
That's a BIG difference.

I've added more value to the Android newsgroup tribal knowledge in just one
of (oh, I can't count how many - hundreds for sure - thousands over my
life) tutorials that I've posted to Usenet all found by search engines.

In fact, you, Rudy & Carlos have *never* written even one tutorial.
Not a single one.

Which is to say I've added more value to people's knowledge in a single day
than you both combined have added in your entire lives. Think about that.

I'm caring.
I'm helpful.
I'm extremely intelligent.
And rather detailed.

My tutorials cover every single step.
Such that I can do what only one out of a million people can do.

You hate that you can't do *any* of that.
So you judge knowledge by the number of words.

For you, the fewer the better.
Fancy that.

Your IQ is so low that in a single day I've kind-heartedly purposefully
helpfully contributed more to our overall knowledge than the both of you
could possibly contribute in your entire sordid sorry lives.

That's just a fact.
You hate that fact.

You spend all your time denying facts.
I spend my time disseminating them.

So you hate me.
But your hatred of me stems solely from your own hatred of your low IQ.

So be it.
You can deny every fact you hate (which is pretty much every fact).

But the fact is your IQ pales in comparison to that of mine.
So you disparage my hundreds (if not thousands) of helpful tutorials.

So be it.
I'm not here to massage your ego.

I'm here to teach people who have enough intelligence to learn.
(i.e., not you)
Carlos E.R.
2025-01-02 20:17:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by R.Wieser
Although its ofcourse nice to have permalinks, even the ones that are
ment as such can break given enough time (nothing is forever).   As
such I, when its looks worthwhile or even just interresting, have the
habit of copying the offered information to my local machine.
Hi Rudy & Carlos,
Rest assured I'm well aware your entire lives you've been told you were
stupid, which has never happened to me - so we're entirely different types.
Bingo! There you are with your insults. Not reading the rest, whatever
it says.

Oh, I see you added the privacy group, to spread the insults more.

I forgot to mention that sometimes you participate in the same thread
with more than one alias, which is a very trollish behaviour.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Andrew
2025-01-03 04:51:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
There you are with your insults.
How many detailed tutorials have you posted to this newsgroup Carlos?
Carlos E.R.
2025-01-03 10:49:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Carlos E.R.
There you are with your insults.
How many detailed tutorials have you posted to this newsgroup Carlos?
Why would I?

You haven't actually published any one, either.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Arno Welzel
2025-01-01 22:19:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
Everything what does not need a Google account. That was easy.
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Andrew
2025-01-02 01:28:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
Everything what does not need a Google account. That was easy.
You have no idea how Android works if you say something that absurd.

Only Theo, so far, understood that an account on the Internet is not at all
the same thing as an account integrally set up deeply in Android settings.
<https://i.postimg.cc/x1NZwj5G/account02.jpg>

Nobody else who posted but Theo knows anything about Android.
Not Arno. Not Frank. Not Rudy. Not Carlos. Not Mayayana. None of you.

There's a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference between these two things:
a. An account on the Internet
b. An account on the phone

Only Theo understood the question. Nobody else did.
<https://i.postimg.cc/Bnyr9fP1/account01.jpg>
VanguardLH
2025-01-02 08:08:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
Everything what does not need a Google account. That was easy.
You have no idea how Android works if you say something that absurd.
Only Theo, so far, understood that an account on the Internet is not at all
the same thing as an account integrally set up deeply in Android settings.
<https://i.postimg.cc/x1NZwj5G/account02.jpg>
Nobody else who posted but Theo knows anything about Android.
Not Arno. Not Frank. Not Rudy. Not Carlos. Not Mayayana. None of you.
a. An account on the Internet
b. An account on the phone
Only Theo understood the question. Nobody else did.
<https://i.postimg.cc/Bnyr9fP1/account01.jpg>
Reset the phone, and next time when an app wants a login then refuse to
prevent having the account stored on the phone. If you're just
protesting Google, don't login to any newly loaded app that wants you to
specify a Google account, so it doesn't get stored on your phone. After
a reset, there are no accounts stored on the phone. It is after *you*
specify a login that either the app will store it locally to itself, or
load it into Accounts in the Android OS.

Patient: It hurts when I do this.
Doctor: Don't do that.
Andrew
2025-01-02 18:58:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Reset the phone, and next time when an app wants a login then refuse to
prevent having the account stored on the phone. If you're just
protesting Google, don't login to any newly loaded app that wants you to
specify a Google account, so it doesn't get stored on your phone. After
a reset, there are no accounts stored on the phone. It is after *you*
specify a login that either the app will store it locally to itself, or
load it into Accounts in the Android OS.
There are only 3 known Google apps which infest Android with a login.
And each of those 3 Google apps has a privacy-aware replacement.

Bear in mind that *plenty* of Google apps have a login that does *not*
infest the Android device with an integral account, VanguardLH.

I realize your IQ is so low you can't comprehend that basic fact.
But Theo understood.

Nobody else understood.
Just Theo.

And, rest assured, for those 3 apps which do infect Android with a
system-wide Google Account, there are free privacy-aware equivalents.

That's what we've learned this week.
Not you. You can't learn anything.

But we learned that.

There is no Google functionality on Android that you can't get without a
Google Account integrally set up inside the Android operating system.

If there were, someone would have mentioned it by now.
Arno Welzel
2025-01-03 22:29:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by VanguardLH
Reset the phone, and next time when an app wants a login then refuse to
prevent having the account stored on the phone. If you're just
protesting Google, don't login to any newly loaded app that wants you to
specify a Google account, so it doesn't get stored on your phone. After
a reset, there are no accounts stored on the phone. It is after *you*
specify a login that either the app will store it locally to itself, or
load it into Accounts in the Android OS.
There are only 3 known Google apps which infest Android with a login.
And each of those 3 Google apps has a privacy-aware replacement.
What replacement is there for Google Wallet?
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Arno Welzel
2025-01-03 22:28:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
Everything what does not need a Google account. That was easy.
You have no idea how Android works if you say something that absurd.
Why? When you don't have a Google account you can still use Android
itself. Is that not correct?
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
VanguardLH
2025-01-04 06:30:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Andrew
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
Everything what does not need a Google account. That was easy.
You have no idea how Android works if you say something that absurd.
Why? When you don't have a Google account you can still use Android
itself. Is that not correct?
An Android phone will work without a Google account. Don't create one
when you first turn on the phone. Or delete any Google account you
already created under the Android global Accounts list. Drastically you
could reset the phone, and make sure to click Skip when asked for a
Google account.

There have already been prior dicussions here on how to remove bundled
apps, like Gmail, where uninstall is disabled.
Siard
2025-01-04 12:24:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
Well, without a Google account I do not have access to paid apps.
There are a few important ones I can hardly do without.
Carlos E.R.
2025-01-04 12:39:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Siard
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
Well, without a Google account I do not have access to paid apps.
There are a few important ones I can hardly do without.
True. I use some.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Frank Slootweg
2025-01-04 18:25:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Siard
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
Well, without a Google account I do not have access to paid apps.
There are a few important ones I can hardly do without.
True. I use some.
Sigh! When will you *ever* learn, Carlos!? 'Andrew' will soon tell you
that each and every paid app can be replaced by a *better* FOSS app,
which obviously has no ads.

Didn't you pay *any* attention when he found a replacement for the
Fitbit app!? Not that that is a paid one, but you'll (not) get the idea.

[For the humour-impaired:] :-)
VanguardLH
2025-01-04 21:10:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Siard
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
Well, without a Google account I do not have access to paid apps.
There are a few important ones I can hardly do without.
True. I use some.
Sigh! When will you *ever* learn, Carlos!? 'Andrew' will soon tell you
that each and every paid app can be replaced by a *better* FOSS app,
which obviously has no ads.
Didn't you pay *any* attention when he found a replacement for the
Fitbit app!? Not that that is a paid one, but you'll (not) get the idea.
[For the humour-impaired:] :-)
Andrew/Arlen found a replacement to the Fitbit app? I thought what he
"found" were suggestions by others. :-p

Just because there are free replacements that are sufficient to some
users does not mean those replacements are as full featured. Yes, there
is OpenStreets to replace Google Maps, but I've used OSM, and then
dropped it since it gets some data from city plats for roads that don't
yet exist, and may never exist, and much of its data is crowd sourced,
so areas with few reporting OSM users are sketchy or missing. Free just
means free, not necessarily equal nor better.

I'd be really interested if there were a free app that had all the
features of TalentApps' Parking that I paid $6.98 back in 2020 (after a
couple years of using the free version), but got abandoned in 2021.
This is not an app to find parking. It records where you parked
(manually, or automatically where I use a Bluetooth disconnect to mark
where I stopped and parked the car), and helps you find your car (either
by a map or a compass direction) along with recording your trips, save
notes for a waypoint, take pics (handy in a parking ramp or huge parking
lot), track multiple cars,

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=il.talent.parking
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=il.talent.parking.premium

I've tried other similar "find my car" and trip tracking combo apps, but
they sucked on features, or were unreliable. I used the free ParKing
app for a couple years, and eventually decided to pay for it (along with
several other apps that I had used, and kept, for several years).

So, if there are is this free (and de-Googled) pools of apps out there,
tell me where. No, I don't mean some app that does some of the
functions, but an equivalent free app that does ALL the same functions,
and maybe some more.

I've also paid for some app either to upgrade, unlock features, or to
support the author.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=il.talent.parking.premium
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.wilysis.cellinfo
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torque
and more.

Yes, there are free versions, but sometimes I want to unlock more
features, or I've used the app for a while, and feel if I'm going to
keep it that I should reward the author. Does the F-Droid Aurora Store
let me do that? Rahul Patel would like me to donate for using Aurora,
but what about the app authors? Do the "free" app authors have to setup
their own merchant accounts or sales services to get "donations"?
Carlos E.R.
2025-01-04 22:15:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Frank Slootweg
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Siard
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
Well, without a Google account I do not have access to paid apps.
There are a few important ones I can hardly do without.
True. I use some.
Sigh! When will you *ever* learn, Carlos!? 'Andrew' will soon tell you
that each and every paid app can be replaced by a *better* FOSS app,
which obviously has no ads.
Didn't you pay *any* attention when he found a replacement for the
Fitbit app!? Not that that is a paid one, but you'll (not) get the idea.
[For the humour-impaired:] :-)
Andrew/Arlen found a replacement to the Fitbit app? I thought what he
"found" were suggestions by others. :-p
Just because there are free replacements that are sufficient to some
users does not mean those replacements are as full featured.
The one I noticed is only a pedometer.
Post by VanguardLH
Yes, there
is OpenStreets to replace Google Maps, but I've used OSM, and then
dropped it since it gets some data from city plats for roads that don't
yet exist, and may never exist, and much of its data is crowd sourced,
so areas with few reporting OSM users are sketchy or missing. Free just
means free, not necessarily equal nor better.
Yes, of course, OSM depends on its contributors.
Post by VanguardLH
I'd be really interested if there were a free app that had all the
features of TalentApps' Parking that I paid $6.98 back in 2020 (after a
couple years of using the free version), but got abandoned in 2021.
This is not an app to find parking. It records where you parked
(manually, or automatically where I use a Bluetooth disconnect to mark
where I stopped and parked the car), and helps you find your car (either
by a map or a compass direction) along with recording your trips, save
notes for a waypoint, take pics (handy in a parking ramp or huge parking
lot), track multiple cars,
Reminds me. I have an app to pay street parking on some cities. I doubt
these things work without an Android account.

I also have an app that connects to the cloud, where a gadget inside my
car records the car position. Tells you where the car is currently
parked (or moving, but that would be very worrisome). I have doubts it
works without an Android account. It is payware and paid subscription
ware (because it provides a WiFi hot spot in the car, which is my reason
for having it).

And I will not work to find out if it needs or not an Android account, I
am not interested.
Post by VanguardLH
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=il.talent.parking
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=il.talent.parking.premium
I've tried other similar "find my car" and trip tracking combo apps, but
they sucked on features, or were unreliable. I used the free ParKing
app for a couple years, and eventually decided to pay for it (along with
several other apps that I had used, and kept, for several years).
So, if there are is this free (and de-Googled) pools of apps out there,
tell me where. No, I don't mean some app that does some of the
functions, but an equivalent free app that does ALL the same functions,
and maybe some more.
I've also paid for some app either to upgrade, unlock features, or to
support the author.
Right. Same here.
Post by VanguardLH
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=il.talent.parking.premium
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.wilysis.cellinfo
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torque
and more.
Yes, there are free versions, but sometimes I want to unlock more
features, or I've used the app for a while, and feel if I'm going to
keep it that I should reward the author. Does the F-Droid Aurora Store
let me do that? Rahul Patel would like me to donate for using Aurora,
but what about the app authors? Do the "free" app authors have to setup
their own merchant accounts or sales services to get "donations"?
--
Cheers, Carlos.
R.Wieser
2025-01-05 10:07:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Carlos,
Post by Carlos E.R.
Yes, there is OpenStreets to replace Google Maps, but I've used OSM, and
then dropped it since it gets some data from city plats for roads that
don't yet exist, and may never exist,
Using OSMAnd myself, I've seen pedestrian "road" data which has become
obsolete at least a decade ago (if not two or more). In a city. :-|
Post by Carlos E.R.
and much of its data is crowd sourced, so areas with few reporting OSM
users are sketchy or missing.
...
Post by Carlos E.R.
Yes, of course, OSM depends on its contributors.
Although I was able to download the relevant map data and figure out which
nodes need to be removed and could estmate(1) which nodes would need to be
added(2), I was never able to figure out where to send such information.
Does either of you know ?

(1) a test with the GPS of a tablet I had didn't give me much confidence in
its accuracy.

(2) I never was able to find an authorative source to what this "diff" file
should look like though.
Post by Carlos E.R.
Free just means free, not necessarily equal nor better.
Replace "free" with "payed for", and the same is true. :-) :-(

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
VanguardLH
2025-01-05 17:34:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R.Wieser
(1) a test with the GPS of a tablet I had didn't give me much
confidence in its accuracy.
The magnometer periodically requires re-calibration (the 3-D figure 8
roll) to get compass readings correct.

Similarly, sometimes the A-GPS table needs to get re-downloaded. There
are lots of GPS apps available, and some have an A-GPS reset function.
I use:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.eclipsim.gpsstatus2

This is one of those apps that don't have a gear icon to get at
settings. Instead you drag from the left edge of the screen to get at
its config panel; however, with a armor case on the phone, it is hard to
drag from any edge of the screen. There is a help page at:

https://mobiwia.com/gpsstatus/

but it presumes you already know a lot about this stuff. You can swipe
from the left to get the config panel to switch between the Status,
Radar, and Locations panels, or swipe in from the right to move between
them.

This app guides you through the compass re-calibrate. In its main
screen, there is a bubble you center to get the phone level to eliminate
discrepencies. It also has a pitch/roll calibrate function.

Its status panel shows to how many GPS satellites you are connected (the
green dots). The dots, their colors, and shapes is described at their
help page. If you can't reach the GPS satellites, there won't be any
green circle dots, and a constantly spinning "Looking for GPS location"
message is displayed.

For GPS re-calibration, this app lets you reset the A-GPS table, and
download new data.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GNSS
Post by R.Wieser
(2) I never was able to find an authorative source to what this "diff"
file should look like though.
For GPS traces, I'd start here:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mapping_techniques

I saw uploaded traces, and where you upload them, at:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/traces

For editing the database, I'd start here:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editors

For help from their community, I'd try here:

https://community.openstreetmap.org/

I didn't find (but didn't look that hard) for info on the structure of
the database, or of exported data (which I suspect is XML). Remember
that I quit using OSMand, so the above is what I found in online
searches.
R.Wieser
2025-01-06 09:00:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
VanguardLH,
Post by VanguardLH
Post by R.Wieser
(1) a test with the GPS of a tablet I had didn't give me much
confidence in its accuracy.
The magnometer periodically requires re-calibration (the 3-D figure
8 roll) to get compass readings correct.
Are you saying that the (functioning of the) GPS is dependant on the compass
?
Post by VanguardLH
Similarly, sometimes the A-GPS table needs to get re-downloaded.
I know that most "smarthone" GPS-es are actually A-GPS. At the time I had
no simcard in tablet, meaning it worked in its off-line mode (and expected
its GPS to work well, out in the open air).
Post by VanguardLH
There are lots of GPS apps available
Thats another thing I'm not prone to: running random apps.

I have no idea what they actually do, and, on that tablet, next-to-no
possibilities to check and/or disallow certain stuff. Combine that with my
stance that an app being allowed on-line is a privilege, not something they
may demand.
Post by VanguardLH
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mapping_techniques
Thanks, but I already found a working description of how to do it.

Damn, I wanted to post the URL I found, but had to find that the page has
gone. :-(

Ah, it seems to have been relocated to here :
https://osmand.net/docs/user/plugins/trip-recording/
Post by VanguardLH
https://www.openstreetmap.org/traces
Uploading a nice trip isn't quite what I was trying to do. Remember, I
didn't trust the accuracy of the tablets GPS, and thus the trip data - a
difference of just a meter or two would be a footwalk going next to a
building, or straight thru its walls. :-) :-(

No, I extracted the nodes from map data for editing purposes (max size just
a few KM squared), and wanted to return those, plus some "guestimated" new
ones, to them.
Post by VanguardLH
https://www.openstreetmap.org/traces
:-) For "some reason" (i'm a hobby programmer) at that time I did not like a
ready-to-use map editor (I seem to remember I also found a list of map
editors), but wanted access to the raw data.
Post by VanguardLH
https://community.openstreetmap.org/
Thanks. But that one is for /users/ of the OSMAnd map program, not for
people who want to five a bit deeper.

Heck, I would be rather surprised if anyone there would even know what the
URL is to the "diff" files OSMAnd itself generates - or what the files
format would be.
Post by VanguardLH
I didn't find (but didn't look that hard) for info on the structure
of the database, or of exported data (which I suspect is XML).
Same here. I did find /some/ info, but not of the current map format(s).
Post by VanguardLH
Remember that I quit using OSMand, so the above is what I found
in online searches.
I have no problem with that. Information, even if its older, is better than
having none at all.

Though I, just like you, did do some major searching, and (effectivily) came
up empty-handed.

So, thanks for the info.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Arno Welzel
2025-01-10 17:14:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by R.Wieser
(1) a test with the GPS of a tablet I had didn't give me much
confidence in its accuracy.
The magnometer periodically requires re-calibration (the 3-D figure 8
roll) to get compass readings correct.
A magnetometer has nothing to do with GPS.
Post by VanguardLH
Similarly, sometimes the A-GPS table needs to get re-downloaded. There
are lots of GPS apps available, and some have an A-GPS reset function.
A-GPS only reduces the time until you have a GPS fix but it will *not*
improve accuracy. In addition to A-GPS Android also uses triangulation
of known cell towers and WiFi networks to determine the current position
when possible.

[...]
Post by VanguardLH
For GPS re-calibration, this app lets you reset the A-GPS table, and
download new data.
There is no "GPS re-calibration". A GPS reciever can not be more or less
acurate depening on any kind of "calibration". There are units which are
more acurate than others and GPS signals can become inacurate when you
have a lot of big objects around you, like trees, houses and so on.
Post by VanguardLH
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GNSS
Do you read your own sources?

Quote:

"Assisted GNSS (A-GNSS) is a GNSS augmentation system that often
significantly improves the startup performance—i.e., time-to-first-fix
(TTFF)—of a global navigation satellite system (GNSS). "

And that's it - faster positioning fix, but not better accuracy.

So with A-GPS or A-GNSS the GPS receiver will know what satellites are
visible at all at its current positions and does not have to wait to get
the information with the slow downlink stream via GPS which is only
around 50 kBit/s - which can take up to 12.5 minutes.
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Andy Burns
2025-01-10 17:33:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by VanguardLH
The magnometer periodically requires re-calibration (the 3-D figure 8
roll) to get compass readings correct.
A magnetometer has nothing to do with GPS.
Occasionally when using google maps from my phone e.g. on a train, it
will report "low accuracy" and request the figure-8 calibration, I think
it can use the magnetometer better to sense the direction of travel?
Arno Welzel
2025-01-11 11:52:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by VanguardLH
The magnometer periodically requires re-calibration (the 3-D figure 8
roll) to get compass readings correct.
A magnetometer has nothing to do with GPS.
Occasionally when using google maps from my phone e.g. on a train, it
will report "low accuracy" and request the figure-8 calibration, I think
it can use the magnetometer better to sense the direction of travel?
The magnetometer is mostly relevant if you do *not* move and want to
know, in which direction the device is oriented.

However when you move, your direction of travel can will be computed
based on your movement - the magnetometer is then completely irrelevant
and will *not* used for that.
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
VanguardLH
2025-01-11 20:01:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by VanguardLH
The magnometer periodically requires re-calibration (the 3-D figure 8
roll) to get compass readings correct.
A magnetometer has nothing to do with GPS.
Occasionally when using google maps from my phone e.g. on a train, it
will report "low accuracy" and request the figure-8 calibration, I think
it can use the magnetometer better to sense the direction of travel?
The magnetometer is mostly relevant if you do *not* move and want to
know, in which direction the device is oriented.
However when you move, your direction of travel can will be computed
based on your movement - the magnetometer is then completely irrelevant
and will *not* used for that.
A "test" didn't give any details just what was the test. Did Wieser
compare his GPS reading (does he have an app that tells him that, and to
how many satellites he was connected, and what type of satellites, and
if they were changing because he was moving) to some map app's GPS
coordinates? Was he moving, or stationery? Did he mark a waypoint
(again, in which app) to move away and then return physically to the
same location to see if he was still shown at the same GPS coordinates?
My response was generic based on a vague test of something to do with
GPS on his tablet which is also undefined, and different devices don't
have the same accuracy (he's using a tablet, not a high-end GPS tracking
device or even a military one, so there will be some hysterysis in
re-measuring a waypoint upon return due to the 1 to 5 meter accuracy
assuming his tablet is capable).

And, yes, A-GPS is for speed in locking into satellites to THEN get
positioning, and that is important when moving when satellites come into
and out of range. And, like your suggestion, perhaps you should read
the referenced articles which mentions a 50 bit/sec download rate to get
the positioning data from the satellites (that's plural), and if a
satellite gets disconnected, and another found, then the download starts
all over. The only data that is instantaneous between device and
satellite is time. The endpoint GPS device computes its location. It
isn't told to the device by the satellite. Wieser's "test" wasn't much
of a GPS test if all he did is one sample while fixed, and then compared
to what?

Rather than nitpicking on the responses, just what is YOUR suggestion to
Wieser regarding his statement of "a test with the GPS of a tablet I had
didn't give me much confidence in its accuracy"? Come on, now, give
some specific suggestions, so we can nitpick on your suggestions being
unfocused for a vague "test".
Arno Welzel
2025-01-12 15:39:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
VanguardLH, 2025-01-11 21:01:

[...]
Post by VanguardLH
Rather than nitpicking on the responses, just what is YOUR suggestion to
Wieser regarding his statement of "a test with the GPS of a tablet I had
didn't give me much confidence in its accuracy"? Come on, now, give
some specific suggestions, so we can nitpick on your suggestions being
unfocused for a vague "test".
There is none. If a device is not accurate, you can't do anything about
it. A-GPS will not improve that.
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
VanguardLH
2025-01-12 23:53:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
[...]
Post by VanguardLH
Rather than nitpicking on the responses, just what is YOUR suggestion to
Wieser regarding his statement of "a test with the GPS of a tablet I had
didn't give me much confidence in its accuracy"? Come on, now, give
some specific suggestions, so we can nitpick on your suggestions being
unfocused for a vague "test".
There is none. If a device is not accurate, you can't do anything about
it. A-GPS will not improve that.
*If*.
Arno Welzel
2025-01-13 16:29:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
[...]
Post by VanguardLH
Rather than nitpicking on the responses, just what is YOUR suggestion to
Wieser regarding his statement of "a test with the GPS of a tablet I had
didn't give me much confidence in its accuracy"? Come on, now, give
some specific suggestions, so we can nitpick on your suggestions being
unfocused for a vague "test".
There is none. If a device is not accurate, you can't do anything about
it. A-GPS will not improve that.
*If*.
Yes - so what?
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
VanguardLH
2025-01-13 21:39:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Arno Welzel
[...]
Post by VanguardLH
Rather than nitpicking on the responses, just what is YOUR suggestion to
Wieser regarding his statement of "a test with the GPS of a tablet I had
didn't give me much confidence in its accuracy"? Come on, now, give
some specific suggestions, so we can nitpick on your suggestions being
unfocused for a vague "test".
There is none. If a device is not accurate, you can't do anything about
it. A-GPS will not improve that.
*If*.
Yes - so what?
My reply was similarly unfocused due to lack of information.
Arno Welzel
2025-01-14 08:57:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Arno Welzel
[...]
Post by VanguardLH
Rather than nitpicking on the responses, just what is YOUR suggestion to
Wieser regarding his statement of "a test with the GPS of a tablet I had
didn't give me much confidence in its accuracy"? Come on, now, give
some specific suggestions, so we can nitpick on your suggestions being
unfocused for a vague "test".
There is none. If a device is not accurate, you can't do anything about
it. A-GPS will not improve that.
*If*.
Yes - so what?
My reply was similarly unfocused due to lack of information.
My reply was not "unfocused due to lack of information".

Again: A-GPS is not improving accuracy. If GPS on a device is not
accurate, you can not improve that with software at all. There is no
"magic trick" to make the GPS reciever work more accurate and you also
can not "calibrate" GPS. A-GPS/A-GNSS only reduces the time to first
fix, since it will provide the satellite position data, so the reciever
does not have to download this data from the satellites using the slow
GPS downlink connection.

Also a magnetometer has *nothing* to do with GPS at all. It will only
report, to which direction the device is currently oriented. But this
has *nothing* to do with your current position. You may need to
calibrate a magnetometer from time to time.
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Carlos E.R.
2025-01-14 12:24:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by VanguardLH
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Arno Welzel
[...]
Post by VanguardLH
Rather than nitpicking on the responses, just what is YOUR suggestion to
Wieser regarding his statement of "a test with the GPS of a tablet I had
didn't give me much confidence in its accuracy"? Come on, now, give
some specific suggestions, so we can nitpick on your suggestions being
unfocused for a vague "test".
There is none. If a device is not accurate, you can't do anything about
it. A-GPS will not improve that.
*If*.
Yes - so what?
My reply was similarly unfocused due to lack of information.
My reply was not "unfocused due to lack of information".
Again: A-GPS is not improving accuracy. If GPS on a device is not
accurate, you can not improve that with software at all. There is no
"magic trick" to make the GPS reciever work more accurate and you also
can not "calibrate" GPS. A-GPS/A-GNSS only reduces the time to first
fix, since it will provide the satellite position data, so the reciever
does not have to download this data from the satellites using the slow
GPS downlink connection.
Also a magnetometer has *nothing* to do with GPS at all. It will only
report, to which direction the device is currently oriented. But this
has *nothing* to do with your current position. You may need to
calibrate a magnetometer from time to time.
I don't know if related or not, but years ago there was a system used to
improve the accuracy of GPS, in places like harbours. They would put a
special transmitter at a site. The exact location of the site was known,
and also what error it got from the GPS system, continuously evaluated.
A ship would use that information to correct their error from their own
GPS receiver by comparison with the error on the site nearby. The
resulting precision was maybe one meter.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Arno Welzel
2025-01-14 19:51:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Carlos E.R., 2025-01-14 13:24:

[...]
Post by Carlos E.R.
I don't know if related or not, but years ago there was a system used to
improve the accuracy of GPS, in places like harbours. They would put a
special transmitter at a site. The exact location of the site was known,
and also what error it got from the GPS system, continuously evaluated.
A ship would use that information to correct their error from their own
GPS receiver by comparison with the error on the site nearby. The
resulting precision was maybe one meter.
There is also a system called "High precision positioning" and the
accuracy is even less than a meter.

Also see here:

<https://www.u-blox.com/en/technologies/high-precision-positioning>

<https://www.ardusimple.com>
--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
Carlos E.R.
2025-01-14 21:59:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
[...]
Post by Carlos E.R.
I don't know if related or not, but years ago there was a system used to
improve the accuracy of GPS, in places like harbours. They would put a
special transmitter at a site. The exact location of the site was known,
and also what error it got from the GPS system, continuously evaluated.
A ship would use that information to correct their error from their own
GPS receiver by comparison with the error on the site nearby. The
resulting precision was maybe one meter.
There is also a system called "High precision positioning" and the
accuracy is even less than a meter.
<https://www.u-blox.com/en/technologies/high-precision-positioning>
I believe they are using what I described as part of it.
Post by Arno Welzel
<https://www.ardusimple.com>
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Andy Burns
2025-01-13 09:20:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arno Welzel
Post by Andy Burns
Occasionally when using google maps from my phone e.g. on a train, it
will report "low accuracy" and request the figure-8 calibration
The magnetometer is mostly relevant if you donot move and want to
know, in which direction the device is oriented.
However when you move, your direction of travel can will be computed
based on your movement - the magnetometer is then completely irrelevant
and willnot used for that.
I had an extreme case of that, I had a magnetic Qi charger in the car,
you could just "chuck" the phone towards it and it would be held in
place and charge ... except any map application would tend to think I
was doing 180° turns while stationary at junctions, and correct itself
after moving off.

But I was thinking of a train journey just last week, where GPS was
struggling (I was sitting at the end of a carriage with presumably not
much GPS view of the sky) and it was very keen for recalibration.
Newyana2
2025-01-11 13:58:34 UTC
Reply
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Post by Siard
Post by Andrew
What can't you do on Android WITHOUT a Google Account set up in the OS?
Well, without a Google account I do not have access to paid apps.
There are a few important ones I can hardly do without.
I expect that most people here don't care, but Wired currently has an
interesting article about Gravy Analytics. They were recently hacked,
some of the data went online, 404media investigated, and the result
is evidence of what we've all known, or should:

Besides apps selling you out to dataminers, many, many apps leak
data through ad auctions. The Gravy data shows location tracking
(sold to both business and gov't) for cellphone users. Unsurprisingly,
the whole thing appears to be like a hundred crazed dogs fighting
over a corpse. The article points out that anyone can get into the
data market by simply bidding on ads. There's no need to bid high
enough to win the slot. One can get the personal info of the ad
target just by signing onto the auction. Crazy stuff.

https://www.wired.com/story/gravy-location-data-app-leak-rtb/

Among apps listed were Tinder, MSO365, Call of Duty.... Interestingly,
companies seem to have a stock response ready: "Don't look at us.
We don't do business with Gravy." But those companies have often
been caught spying in the past. And they do run ads. So there seems
to be a lot of plain, baldfaced lying going on. And why not? They don't
face punishment. The strategy of sweeping it under the rug has worked
well. So why offer a quotable quote and risk waking up the peasantry
who are happily using dating apps or counting their footsteps?
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